Description

Clive Lytle was born in Winnipeg, Manitoba in 1937. He went to University for his Bachelors of Arts degree, and was recommended to apply for a research position at the BC Federation of Labour. He went on to hold various roles in the labour movement, producing communication and educational material for a number of organizations, including developing a Labour Studies program for Simon Fraser University. Clive passed away on October 27, 2016.

, Monday, July 11, 2016

, Interview: Clive Lytle (CL)
Interviewer: Ken Bauder (KB), Bailey Garden (BG)
Date: July 11, 2016
Location: Clive’s home, Vancouver
Transcription: Bailey Garden

KB [00:00:05] Good morning.

CL [00:00:06] Hi Ken, hi Bailey.

KB [00:00:07] How are you today?

CL [00:00:09] I'm here.

KB [00:00:09] Yeah. One of the things we're interested in is going through a number of points in your labour history and the labour history of British Columbia and asking your thoughts on them and where you were at the time and how -- looking forward -- where labour is going. So just to start that, we'd like to get a sense for when and where you were born.

CL [00:00:40] Okay, born in Winnipeg in 1937. My father was a church gesture (unclear). My mother was a housewife and music teacher, and a strong CCF-er (Co-operative Commonwealth Federation Party).

KB [00:00:56] Yes.

CL [00:00:57] My father was a conservative, so that's what we grew up in.

KB [00:01:01] Brothers and sisters.

CL [00:01:03] Three younger sisters.

KB [00:01:05] Okay.

CL [00:01:06] Still with us, but younger.

KB [00:01:10] What was your first job? What do you recall that being?

CL [00:01:14] A real job as opposed to babysitting and that kind of thing?

KB [00:01:17] Part-time, delivery.

CL [00:01:18] Well, I worked at -- I guess the first real job I had was interesting story, because it was an introduction to the system. We used to spend every summer at Grand Beach, where my grandparents had a home, and there's a kind of a boardwalk there. Unfortunately, that all burned down in the fifties, but there was a great dance hall and there was a -- under another name -- a bingo game on the boardwalk. I was turning 13, or had turned 13, and my voice had changed. I was hired to sit at the mic and hustle people in off the street and then to call the numbers. It was great. Minimum wage, but I came my first payday, and he shortchanged me. Tried to shortchange me, and I said, 'No, no, you owe me so much.' And he said, 'No, no,' I said, 'Oh --' I won't say what I said, my language wasn't any better than it is now. He said, 'Oh, okay.' He was all set to pay up properly. So, I said, 'I'm out of here.' I thought to myself, there's a lesson. He had a gold mine because he had a cheap employee.

KB [00:02:42] Yes.

CL [00:02:43] That could do the job, but he was trying to chisel.

KB [00:02:47] He thought he could get away with it.

CL [00:02:49] Yeah. So anyways, I guess that was the first job of such, but then most of my work after that was when I was going to university. I worked in the dining car, C.P.R. (Canadian Pacific Railway) dining cars for two years, which was better education than university was, actually. Learning to deal with diverse people under stressful situations for them. I worked at a clothing store, and then Safeway a lot, for two or three years. I worked part-time at Safeway all through university.

KB [00:03:25] What was the university period? What did you actually --

CL [00:03:30] '54 through '59.

KB [00:03:31] Okay.

CL [00:03:32] I took a B.A. one year of law.

KB [00:03:35] Okay.

CL [00:03:35] And decided that my lifelong dream of being Clarence Darrow was not what it was going to be like, so I walked away from it. Decided -- it was unfortunate because UBC law school then was a disaster. It was all old, no labour law at all, no interest in any civil rights or anything else. It was all wills and torts.

KB [00:04:02] Yes.

CL [00:04:02] Property law.

KB [00:04:03] Yes.

CL [00:04:04] Which was not the dream that I had. So anyway, I walked away from that, and I worked for the Vancouver International Festival, which was then -- it was only on for a few years, but it was a big event and brought in top performers from everywhere.

KB [00:04:27] Film or...

CL [00:04:28] No, live. Live performers.

KB [00:04:30] Oh wow.

CL [00:04:33] In fact, I did the front of house for the Mozart Opera, which I had no interest in opera, but I did. So anyways, I worked there and another -- it was an interesting experience. Then I was quite active in the NDP (New Democratic Party) Youth section at that time, and one of the people I knew said that they thought that the Fed (BC Federation of Labour) was looking for a research director. Was I interested? Was I interested, I guess so. So, I had a very unusual job interview. Pat O'Neill arranged for me to come to his apartment on English Bay for dinner. He served steaks and Irish whisky and everything else. That was my introduction to Pat O'Neill. He didn't really ask me any questions, mostly talked.

KB [00:05:38] What was it like working for him?

CL [00:05:40] Well, it was an interesting experience. He was a volatile, colourful, wonderful individual. He was like a movie Irishman. Charming, eyes were always dancing, full of bullshit. He was wonderful on the convention floor, you know. He could sell everything.

KB [00:06:04] Yes.

CL [00:06:07] It was fun working for him. You had to manage dealing with Pat because if you had an idea, and it was a good idea, it ended up being his idea, which was fine.

KB [00:06:20] Yes.

CL [00:06:21] But that's the way he was. He was a showman. Wonderful. He did a tremendous amount. It's unfortunate, his later history, because the Fed was nothing. I mean, in terms of community, B.C. was nothing. Partly, because he had a kind of style that reflected WAC Bennett. He attracted attention to the BC Fed. It was the first time media even knew about this labour organization, and he did a great job in that respect. I think I mentioned in my notes, it was challenging working for him, especially when I became -- I went from Research Director to Communications Director, and Pat would get a bright idea and he'd make an announcement. His officers hadn't heard anything about it. The classic, which I mentioned, was he talked to Sam Bass of London Drug about setting up a drug plant. Great idea.

KB [00:07:23] Yes.

CL [00:07:23] But it was a -- you know, like what would you call it.

KB [00:07:28] Pie in the sky.

CL [00:07:30] Yeah, but he had announced it, and for week after week, various people in the media, George Dobie of the Sun and various people would be calling saying, 'What's the latest?' I just had to stall and stall and stall until they lost interest. I think they kind of realized there was nothing happening.

KB [00:07:50] Were there benefits for the members working at the Fed or was there a collective agreement for staff or anything like that in those days?

CL [00:07:59] There was for the office, like the clerical. The secretaries, as we used to call them then, but no, I wasn't covered by it.

KB [00:08:11] So, it would be OPEIU.

CL [00:08:12] OPEIU (Office and Professional Employees International Union) covered them, yes. Opal Skilling was a wonderful Business Manager for many years, but the assistant secretary at that time, John McNevin, and myself, were not. Then later, when I became assistant secretary, I wasn't either, but I became a member of the Retail Wholesale Union, which was really a courtesy because the Retail Wholesale office was next door to our office. So, I was excited they let me join. So, I have an affiliation with them.

KB [00:08:47] Yes, absolutely.

CL [00:08:47] Of course, we worked very closely together subsequently, John Squire and the other guys.

KB [00:08:52] Right, right.

CL [00:08:53] Became close; but yes, Pat was interesting to work for. He had a flair. We had a shop-in at Zellers. There was a strike on at Zellers in Newton, or Whalley. We had a shop-in there with the media out. We were all in there, getting shopping baskets full of stuff and going through the checkout and then seeing the picket signs. Pat -- everyone at this event had a canary in a cage.

KB [00:09:28] A coal miner's model.

CL [00:09:30] You can guess what the cameras were interested in. They weren't interested in this, there's a canary in a cage being set down in front of the cashier while Pat looked aghast.

BG [00:09:45] Always the showman.

CL [00:09:47] He was a wonderful showman. I'll tell you a great story about Pat. Off the record, this one's off the record.

BG [00:09:54] Okay.

CL [00:09:54] You don't have to -- I don't care about that. We used to have our conventions at the Bayshore and (video glitch) was losing. Pat, amongst other things, arranged to have the hotel room where the PPWC (Pulp, Paper and Woodworkers of Canada) guys were staying -- I'm trying to remember the hotel, it was on Georgia Street -- having their room bugged. Of course, they were all -- in the eyes of the RCMP (Royal Canadian Mounted Police) or whoever security people were there, they were all reds, you know. Of course, that came out and it was Pat's downfall in the labour movement. His name was mud.

KB [00:10:39] Yes, that's how.

CL [00:10:41] What didn't come out till after is that they'd, as it were, owned him for years.

KB [00:10:47] The RCMP?

CL [00:10:48] Yeah, because he was an illegal immigrant. His real name was Tommy Joe Casey. He had jumped ship in Vancouver and got a job in the pulp mill and within a year was president of the local of the mill. I mean, it's a wonderful story.

KB [00:11:05] Yes.

CL [00:11:08] He changed his name in the process, I don't know exactly what point, to Pat O'Neill. Named after a beloved uncle of his in Ireland, but they got this information somewhere along the line. So, after that.

KB [00:11:24] They controlled.

CL [00:11:24] They could, and I'm not saying that they had any reason to exercise it, but in this occasion they did. It was sad because his accomplishment from being a ship jumper to President of the BC Federation of Labour or Secretary-Treasurer within less than five years was a remarkable tribute to his ability, his charisma and everything else.

KB [00:11:52] Yes, yes. Organizing skill.

CL [00:11:54] Anyways, that was Pat.

KB [00:11:58] Just as a bit of an aside Bailey's grandfather.

BG [00:12:03] Yeah, it might be a fun tidbit to add. My grandfather was an NDP M.L.A. (Member of Legislative Assembly) in the early nineties. His last name was Garden, Frank Garden.

CL [00:12:14] Frank Garden, oh yes. He was a pulp guy.

BG [00:12:16] And he was a pulp guy as well. Yeah.

CL [00:12:18] I knew Frank.

BG [00:12:18] Oh, did you? Yeah, that was my grandfather. So just a fun little connection there, yeah. He was up in Powell River and in Quesnel also, yeah.

CL [00:12:25] Yeah. Oh, I knew Frank.

BG [00:12:27] There you go.

CL [00:12:27] In 1964, I was relatively newly married, although I'd had this wonderful fellowship in Britain, Nuffield Fellowship. I was working for the Fed, and I got invited to go down to the CLC (Canadian Labour Congress) to interview for Assistant Research Director, because Russ Irving was moving on up and it was going to be great opening. So, I had another nice interview. I met with Joe Morris and so on and then Russ and his fiancée took me out to a French restaurant in Hull and Kent. Again, everything was very nice, and I was offered the job at wages and benefits I could not believe.

KB [00:13:17] Wow.

CL [00:13:18] I got back to my hotel room at the Chateau Laurier.

KB [00:13:21] Yes, I know the Laurier.

CL [00:13:22] I phoned Victoria and I said, 'What do you think about moving to Ottawa?' And I told her that, you know, she was excited. I got up. I woke up the next morning and my phone rang, and it was Jack McKenzie, who was the Vice-President of the NDP and Vice-President of the IWA. A very fine, fine man. He said, 'Are you free for breakfast?' And I said, 'Yeah, sure'. He said, 'Well, I'm with Tommy, and I wondered if you'd come have breakfast with Tommy Douglas.' Well, of course.

KB [00:13:59] Yes.

CL [00:14:00] So I went down to have breakfast, and they broke the news to me that since the party had been formed -- the New Party had been formed -- they had not had any organizers in B.C., and they wanted an organizer. They decided I would be the perfect one for the job. Very flattering, and the job, I think was going to be about $500 a month and a car allowance. So much per mile for my Volkswagen to travel all over the province. So then I had to phone home and say, 'We're not going to Ottawa.'.

KB [00:14:38] Yes.

CL [00:14:38] I'm going to work for the NDP. It's going to be a slight cut in wages, anyways. So, I did that job, travelled all over and it was a case of just people seeing somebody from Vancouver. They hadn't seen anybody, and I'm sure it was back then even that I met Frank. I went from a year or so organizing to become Provincial Secretary and travelled all over also. So, I did a lot of time that winter following semis along through the snow in the Kootenays and everywhere else so my little Volkswagen tracks would fit inside.

KB [00:15:22] Surely. When you're at the Fed, you worked alongside George Johnston.

CL [00:15:30] Yes.

KB [00:15:31] Tell me about that.

CL [00:15:32] I can tell you lots of stories. Some of these should not -- you can record them, but some of these you won't want to use. George was a funny man. He was a Meatcutter. He came with a lot of the old AFL (American Federation of Labour) background. Anti-communists and whatever else and that, but he very quickly adapted. Ray and John Squire and some of the others, they influenced him and he was basically a progressive man at heart.

KB [00:16:01] Yes.

CL [00:16:05] He drank too much. No two ways about it, George had a drinking problem and on more than one occasion caused some embarrassment, you know. Had guests out for Chinese food in a restaurant and George ended up face down in the chopped chow mein, but he was a good-hearted guy, and he was a brilliant convention chair. The whole world has, in labour circles, heard the story about the convention where the IWA's (International Woodworkers of America)(unclear) was trying to defeat George, and by then, Len Guy.

KB [00:16:46] Yeah, yes.

CL [00:16:47] To take over control of the Federation. It was a big union versus small unions, really. Of course, the debates are over the officers' report. Jack Munro would get up to speak, and soon as he was at the microphone or in line, Len or the others would get up and stand behind him. As soon as he finished speaking. Anyways, he got frustrated, and Jack had a temper. He got frustrated. He said, 'Brother chairman,' he said, 'I'm God damn sick of this. Every time I get up to the mic, brother Guy or one of these others are right there behind me.' And he says, 'it's like pissing into the wind.' And George leaned forward to the mic, and said, 'Brother Munro, piss away.'

KB [00:17:33] Yeah, yeah, yeah. There was a roll call that went right in that process.

CL [00:17:38] That changed the whole result. I have no doubt. No doubt that my friend Art Kube, of course, that they would have won if -- trying to remember his name. The president of the New Westminster Local, who I knew well. Anyway, he had not got the great idea of calling for a roll call vote. Normally it would be local so-and-so, how many votes, and I don't know why he did it. Other than sheer stupidity, because they started polling and some of the -- a few of the IWA locals that they thought were 100% ended up having one or two or three left leaning people who voted for Johnson and Guy. CUPE (Canadian Union of Public Employees) had quite a few of those. Yes. The left was very prominent there. Jack Phillips of the CUPE Vancouver outside workers was -- behind the scenes -- was organizing the communists that they had, they weren't a large number, to support.

KB [00:18:52] Yes.

CL [00:18:52] The slate, not because Len or George or any of them were at all sympathetic, but a lot of the -- not all -- but a lot of the communists were labour guys first, and they felt that administration was good for the unions and they feared the IWA, BC Government Employees, Steelworkers monolith not doing the job for the small unions.

KB [00:19:18] Yes.

CL [00:19:18] And I think they were right. So anyways, there was all these defections and lo and behold, the result was not what they thought, and George and Len were re-elected or were elected.

KB [00:19:39] Was it a close vote or.

CL [00:19:41] Yeah, I don't remember the exact vote. Yeah, it was interesting because in that campaign -- it's funny because Art and I subsequently became friends, and not only that, he used to have me up teaching every week at the winter school.

KB [00:19:54] Yes.

CL [00:19:54] I did an interview with George Dobie in the Sun, then labour reporter, in which he said these young leftists, Clive Lytle and Colin Gabelmann, behind the scenes were running the show. Well, we all wished it was true, but anyways I kidded Art about that years later. Yeah, they lost, and Art was a good guy. He was from the east, he was a CLC oriented Steelworker, and he wasn't part of any ideological thing, but that was just where he came from.

CL [00:20:36] Yes.

CL [00:20:36] Of course, he was responsive to big unions. That administration, beginning with Ray, the whole secret of it was that it was just for the small unions.

CL [00:20:47] When you look back at the BC Fed executives and some of the names that come out are Squire and Haynes and Staley and Mackenzie, Dunphy, Crabbe, Guy and Johnson and Gabelmann. A fairly tight team, or from time to time they would actually --

CL [00:21:10] Well, within the office itself. John Squire, who was then assistant, myself, Ray, Colin, once he got involved and George, were very -- I mentioned, it was very collegial. It was the best four or five years I had in my working life because it was very collegial.

KB [00:21:32] Yes.

CL [00:21:32] We would sit around and say, 'Ray, you're full of shit.'

KB [00:21:35] Yeah.

CL [00:21:36] But the end result usually was a good decision. Now, when it broadened to be the full officers, of course it wasn't quite that because there was different points of view, very different points of view. We had Don Dunphy, you mentioned, was a very fine man, very good unionist, but he was a Steelworker.

KB [00:21:59] Yes.

CL [00:22:00] He had a Steelworkers orientation, which was to hate Mine Mill (International Union of Mine, Mill and Smelter Workers) and to hate CASAW (Canadian Association of Smelter and Allied Workers).

KB [00:22:07] And CAIMAW (Canadian Association of Industrial, Mechanical and Allied Workers).

CL [00:22:08] There was a memorable -- I don't like to say, it makes Don look bad, but there was a memorable -- they had a strike at Kitimat, CASAW, and they asked for Fed support. They were, of course, non-affiliates; not only that, but they were at war with the Steelworkers and so we a -- what support we'd give them, picket line support and so on. Don sort of -- he was a smart man and he was very, sort of, dancing around. 'Well, you know, they're not affiliates, so do we?' And my dear friend, who was only on the executive council of the Fed, but who became a close friend -- we worked together at the Building Trades -- Cy Stairs, who was an old-fashioned unionist. Cy stood up and he said, 'Dunphy, I don't know where you came from, but where I came from.' Pardon the language, 'A picket line is a fucking picket line and you don't cross.'.

KB [00:23:12] Yes.

CL [00:23:13] That was the end of the story.

KB [00:23:14] Crabbe?

CL [00:23:17] You know, that was the only name that puzzled me. I remember Don, first because he was a very smart dresser and a good-looking guy and a nice guy, but he was never -- he doesn't stick out in my mind as being a significant player. There are subsequent CUPE (Canadian Union of Public Employees) guys, Mike Kramer and others who did, but I don't -- Ray and I talked, the same thing. We don't really remember much about Don; except he was good-looking and dressed well.

KB [00:23:47] Staley.

CL [00:23:48] Well, Staley was a wonderful old carpenter, again, an unlikely henchman for some of these others because he was very much AFL and head of the Provincial Council of Carpenters, which was conservative, even though a lot of the carpenters liked Zander and that for anything (unclear), but Staley also was a good trade unionist and he also had a bit of a drinking problem. There was an NDP convention at Chilliwack and they were very, very mad at the -- it was before Barrett -- they were very, very mad about something or other, and Staley wanted to tear a strip off. So, I was assigned the responsibility of trying to keep him the hell away from the microphone because he had -- this was afternoon, he had few drinks at lunch. So, a couple of times he went up to the microphone and I wandered up there. Finally, he turned to me, and he said, 'I know what you're trying to do.' But he said, 'You're wasting your time because I'm going to say what I'm going to say.' But I tell you, I had a very enlightening experience with him at a CLC winter school at Parksville when they used to be there. David Lewis, then leader of the NDP, was there and a brilliant man, and John McNevin, who was the other assistant secretary at the Fed was there and Al and I, and we sat down to play bridge one night. David was a very fine bridge player and a very brilliant man, and John was a better bridge player than me. But oh, we played together and in the course of the evening, I had a real education because David was being very helpful to John. At the end of a hand, you had nicely explained to John what would have been a better play than the one John had made. Meantime, Al just sat there and puffed a cigar, and you know, he was also a pretty good bridge player. I watched John's confidence deteriorate slowly and by the end of the evening, after about two and a half hours, it was like he'd never played the game. Well-meaning and everything else, but David just destroyed his confidence. Meanwhile, Al knew enough not to do that or had enough instinct to just let it be and let them defeat themselves.

KB [00:26:35] Yes.

CL [00:26:36] But he was a much -- in retrospect, he was -- Ray and others, I think, would tell you they ended up with a lot more respect for him than they had at the time. At the time, he was a cigar smoking... but he was a sharp man, and when some of the battles came when he was still there, he was very much in them.

KB [00:26:54] McKenzie.

CL [00:26:56] Well, apart from getting me out of my nice CLC job, he's one of the nicest men anybody in the labour movement has ever met. A gentleman, as my father would have said. A gentleman of the old school, always amazing that he survived in the IWA, but everybody respected him and loved him. Quiet, was never a very forceful figure in any of these things.

KB [00:27:21] Yes.

CL [00:27:21] But he was somebody that everybody trusted. He probably had more influence in the NDP, because he was a labour person, that they would listen to him.

KB [00:27:34] Right. Ron Johnson.

CL [00:27:37] Well, Ron, I first met Ron when he was 15 years old, and I was running for NDP in New Westminster federally. Yeah, I still have the Province headlines that say, 'Lytle, a sure thing,' but Trudeau arrived at Brentwood two weeks before the election and I lost by 100 votes.

KB [00:28:00] That was all his doing.

CL [00:28:01] Ron spent every night of the week canvassing for me.

BG [00:28:07] Wow.

CL [00:28:07] He'd come home from school, have dinner, had he'd go out and he'd canvass. He was very like a kid then, you know. Rosy-cheeked and -- but he was very knowledgeable and very committed. He did a fabulous job on that, and that ended -- well, I talked to him on the phone yesterday, that began a lifelong friendship.

KB [00:28:28] Yes.

CL [00:28:29] And interaction politically. And we've, Linda and I, managed political campaigns for Ron and for Johanna, his wife. Of course, we're very, very close.

KB [00:28:43] Yes. The IWA had some issues at the Fed and there were four locals that were kind of, off the mark, I guess.

CL [00:29:00] They were. I can't even remember what the issue was, but they were pissed off at the Fed and they withheld their dues.

KB [00:29:10] They wanted O'Neill to resign.

CL [00:29:12] Yeah, that could be. They withheld their dues, and I think they thought that the Fed would collapse, but that didn't happen. Ultimately, they came back in, and it was always a rocky relationship between the IWA and the Fed in those years.

KB [00:29:35] Yes.

CL [00:29:36] It started with Jack Moore, who ultimately went to the Mediation Commission. It was always a very, very uneasy and difficult relationship with Jack Munro. On the one hand, most of the people that I worked with and was close with at the Fed respected the fact that he was able to unite the IWA, which had always been fractious, and respected them in that respect; but we were poles apart in what I call political issues and how you deal with a hostile government and how you deal with an NDP government.

KB [00:30:13] Yes.
,
CL [00:30:13] So, there was a lot of conflict. In fact, you mentioned Kube's Christmas thing. We were at a Christmas do there, having a few classes. It was quite a large group there, and somebody said that had been an interesting article in the Fisherman, the paper. I said, 'Oh, geez.' I said, 'Since I guess when I left the Building Trades,' I said, 'Gee, I don't see it anymore since I haven't been in the Building Trades.' And Jack perked up and said, 'Fuck that.' He says, 'You write for it.' This moment of silence went through the room, including from Frank Walls, his Education Director, who used to kind of look after him. I said, 'What?' He said, 'You write for it. You write for the fucking commie paper all the time.' Anyways, he was, Jack was convinced that we were commies. Some of us were Communist, and it didn't help that we ended up in political battles in the NDP, beginning with Berger-Barrett battle.

KB [00:31:30] Right.

CL [00:31:31] All of us, all the Fed guys and us were supporters of Berger.

KB [00:31:36] Yes.

CL [00:31:38] Most of the IWA were supporters of Barrett and that continued, in fact, up 'til five years ago, if you went to a gathering of old NDP-ers they'd say, 'Oh, you were a Berger man, weren't you?'.

KB [00:31:50] Is that right.

BG [00:31:52] Can you tell us more about when that changeover happened and kind of, how the climate changed? Just when the whole Berger-Barrett situation was going on? Yeah.

CL [00:32:05] Well, some labour had strongly supported Berger. He'd done a wonderful thing on labour issues, you know, in the court cases and that, apart from the Native issues also. So, when he first ran for leadership, not an inclusive group, but Ray was certainly on the campaign committee and I was, and Dennis Cocke, who later became Health Minister, we were all on Berger's campaign committee and ran a successful campaign. Unfortunately, we didn't do so well in the general election which followed. The irony is that I had been very close to Dave Barrett when I was organizer for the party.

KB [00:32:56] Yes.

CL [00:32:58] But he when he decided to run for leader, he came and said would I support him, and I said I'm supporting Tom Berger. Well, not too hard to understand, our friendship cooled from that point on and never resumed. Anyways, it was a big -- Berger had run against Bob Strachan, which was the old CCF against the 'new', and the new was heavily trade union. In fact, even before then, you mentioned Pat O'Neill, Pat got his hands in NDP affairs too. There was a federal nomination in Vancouver Centre, I think it was when Basford was the member. But anyways, a very fine woman named Margaret Erickson was seeking. She had run before for the CCF. She was seeking the nomination and she was, you know, anti-nuclear arms, I mean, all of the right issues, but not designed to win. Certainly, the West End. So, Pat decided that no, because he lived in the West End, he decided no, this wasn't going to do. He set out to get a bunch of union affiliates, and so on and so forth. When I say he set out to do it, he assigned me to do it. So, there was finally a nominating convention, it was at the YMCA down on Burrard Street. Margaret arrived and looked around and was all these strange faces that she'd never seen at any of their Stanley Park club meetings. Guys from the plumber's union. So, they got in this kind of debate that the NDP loves, even to this day, about procedure. How long speakers are going to have and so on and so forth. Everything was just going along until one guy from the plumber's union who'd had a couple before he got to the meeting said, 'Brother chair,' he said, 'We don't need all these speeches.' He said, 'We all know who we came here to vote for, and it isn't any woman either.' At that point, even Pat wanted to (unclear). Anyways, but that was the way it was. There was a lot of conflict, but you know -- and Barrett kind of bridged that because the old CCF-ers loved him, and as he became successful, his popularity spread.

KB [00:35:44] Right. I'll throw a name out at you and see whether you recall, Harold Pritchett.

CL [00:35:52] Oh, yeah. I didn't know Harold personally. You know, he was an earlier figure. He was a big figure.

KB [00:36:00] A founding president.

CL [00:36:01] Yeah, and I don't -- I'm sure I never met him. I mean, I met a lot of the guys, his successors, spiritual and otherwise.

KB [00:36:09] Yes. Yes.

CL [00:36:11] I don't think I ever met Harold. He was pretty much gone, I think, by the --

KB [00:36:17] Sixties.

CL [00:36:18] Certainly by the 60s, yeah.

KB [00:36:19] Yeah. Now, Pat Neale.

CL [00:36:26] Patty Neale.

KB [00:36:26] Patty Neale resigned at the Vancouver and District Labour Council so that they wouldn't be expelled from the CLC.

CL [00:36:35] Yeah.

KB [00:36:35] Do you recall that incident?

CL [00:36:36] I vaguely do. Patty was somebody we had a sort of a love-hate relationship with. Everybody loved Pat. I mean, he was the life of the Legion, and he was a very successful politician. Of course, he went to jail briefly over a picket line and he had it made then for life in Vancouver East.

KB [00:37:01] Yes, that's right. That's right.

CL [00:37:03] Patty was not a deep or powerful political person.

KB [00:37:09] Right.

CL [00:37:10] He was good at what he did. He was great for labour councils.

KB [00:37:12] Yes. Yes.

CL [00:37:16] And the United Way and everything, but he was not a profound labour leader. He was, I would say, loosely part of the group that was involved in the Fed at that time.

KB [00:37:30] When did the poker game start?

CL [00:37:33] At conventions, at the -- we mentioned The Bayshore, they started then. Had another introduction to Pat O'Neill again, another story probably. I had been hired, but hadn't -- well, I'd just started at the Fed, but I had nothing to do with the convention. I mean, it was just after I was hired. There was a Young New Democrat thing at one of the members. People had a farm over in Esquimalt, so we had a big rowdy weekend there. Monday morning, the young woman and I who had been together in the latter part of it, we arrived at the Empress for the convention, it was just really underway, I think they called it to order. When they broke for lunch, Pat came over and said, 'I'd like to have a word with you at lunchtime.' Okay, Pat. So anyways, he took me aside, puffing on his pipe, and again, excuse the language but just for this. He said, 'Do you know?' He said, 'When you're with the Fed,' he said, 'You can drink all night, you can fuck all night, but when the convention starts in the morning, you're there.' Lesson learned.

KB [00:39:03] Yes. Yes, that's right.

CL [00:39:07] Anyway, the pertinence of that is often after conventions, mostly at the Bayshore, we would begin playing poker at 10, 11 at night. Again, if we were back meeting in Ottawa or somewhere, same thing. The interesting thing is, with the exception of George, who would do his drinking before he got there, we didn't drink much at those games, as you saw. Still don't.

KB [00:39:35] Yes.

CL [00:39:37] Spending too much money to do it drinking. But so anyways, we would play 'til often two or three in the morning and then go get a few hours sleep, shave, shower and but always be down on time.

KB [00:39:53] Yeah.

BG [00:39:54] Be there in the morning.

KB [00:39:57] When you were appointed Communications Coordinator at the Fed, what were some of the significant issues that you dealt with over your time?

CL [00:40:06] That's a tough one, apart from London Drugs. Think you've stumped me a bit, because things tend to run into -- you know, I was only in that role for a couple of years. Then it was Ray and things changed.

KB [00:40:32] Yes.

CL [00:40:32] Role changed. Always, there were strike related issues.

KB [00:40:37] Hot edicts.

CL [00:40:38] Yeah. Mitchell Press was a big, big strike for -- That was where I learnt another lesson. I put out several leaflets attacking this rotten, horrible, corrupt company and then the union got an agreement.

KB [00:41:00] Yeah.

CL [00:41:01] And then they came in and said, 'Now we've got to put out something nice. I mean, you know, they're a good union company.' Well, that took a little head scratching, decide how the guys that have been rotten bastards yesterday were now good guys, but I learnt to do it.

KB [00:41:16] Yeah, yes.

CL [00:41:17] Mitchell Press was a big one. There was --

KB [00:41:22] Lenkurt

CL [00:41:23] Lenkurt Electric. Yep. That's where Patty got arrested.

KB [00:41:26] Right.

CL [00:41:26] And a couple of other IWA guys got arrested. Yeah. That was one of the first picket lines I was -- spent a significant time on. We had a memorable strike with the -- oh, I'm sorry, it was during the Mitchell Press strike, we had an interesting thing. There was a lot of workers, the striking workers were women, and some of a lot of the scabs were women. There was a guy who used to work for the Hotel and Restaurant Union, John Clarke. He was basically a good man, a good trade unionist, but he was a bit thug-ey. Well, I can remember they came and asked at the Fed to ask us to get him off the picket line, because he was offending the women because of what he was calling the striking women, and what he was inviting them to do and so on. It was offensive to the women out on strike, so we had to go to his union and say, 'Get him away from the picket line'.

BG [00:42:45] Could you tell us a little bit more about women's involvement?

CL [00:42:48] Well, yes, I could really. When I was first involved, the only woman that anybody knew was Josephine Hallock, who was the Union Label Committee. Josephine was kind of an old granny, but she pursued that diligently and there was not a lot of enthusiasm for Union Label. But boy, she nagged this and bugged us on that. She did a wonderful job. The other - there were a couple others that I didn't know as well. Helen O'Shaughnessy, at the Fishermen's Union, but the other woman that was very prominent was Opal Skilling, who organized most of the union offices, and they all hated, of course, they all hated Opal because, you know, if you're a boss, you're a boss.

KB [00:43:35] Yeah, that's right.

CL [00:43:39] But she was a great, dedicated unionist. She took part in everything, she had -- she was listened to, but there wasn't much significant women involvement. In fact, when the Fed set up its first Women's Rights Committee, which was chaired by Joy Langan, who was then at the Typographical Union and went on to be a Member of Parliament for a number of years. There were no women staff members to service that committee. So, I was appointed staff representative to service the Women's Committee, Women's Rights Committee, and which I was happy to do; and ironically, when I left the Fed, they presented me with a T-shirt which I could never wear. Loved it, could never wear it, saying honorary feminist. So, I had it to show friends but didn't wear it out on the street.

KB [00:44:39] When they -- as a committee of the Fed, were they able to bring forward any change?

CL [00:44:48] Well, certainly when Joy was there. Yes, and Joy did have a lot of respect, you know.

KB [00:44:57] Yeah. Knew her well, actually.

CL [00:44:58] She did, she began. But when -- again, when Ray took over, it all started to change more quickly. Ray had no experience or background in issues philosophically, but I always remember he was -- I think it was Gary Bannerman who had a morning show or talk show might have been, I'm pretty sure it was Bannerman, and he had Ray on there. Interviewed him about all the issues, and you know, good old boy, he said, 'Now Ray,' he said, 'What about this nonsense of these women who get married and want to keep their own names? Ha ha.' Ray said -- I'm sure it was Bannerman -- he said, 'You know Gary, I'm known a bit as Ray Haynes.' He said, 'If I was asked to change my name,' he said, 'I wouldn't be very comfortable with that.' Bannerman didn't get it, but Ray got it, even then. While he would open doors and things that were no longer, he understood it and he liked women and was comfortable with women. We hired -- I did the hiring -- Astrid Davidson as a receptionist, and she became the first real Women's Rights.

KB [00:46:23] Advocate.

CL [00:46:24] Coordinator at the Fed.

BG [00:46:28] Astrid was her name?

CL [00:46:29] Astrid.

BG [00:46:29] Astrid.

CL [00:46:31] And she did a very good job. She was a hardworking, good person. Then, of course, women became more influential. Carolyn Gabelmann -- Carolyn Askew became Legislative Director and in the unions themselves, the BCG (BC Government Employees Union) and CUPE and that, very strong women came forward. So, it already changed, I would say, like a lot of things in society did in the seventies. The smart -- you know, I don't think Ray would ever say he did anything, but he never stood in the way. You know, he never stood in the way. If you were -- if you could do the job, you could do the job.

KB [00:47:21] Yes, that's right. When the Barrett government got elected, what was the relationship with labour?

CL [00:47:30] When they first got elected? It was pretty good. It was a little bit reserved, because most of the Fed people and that had supported Berger before the leadership but worked hard to get the Barrett government elected. The problems began thereafter, and it was problems on both sides. The expectations the Fed and other unions, individual unions, in terms of what the government was going to do. Because, you know, now it's turned, now we've got it. You know, it's going to be our way and of course, you can't do that in a government. People in the Fed realize that generally, but it becomes how far do you go? You know, the -- and understandably, in the early years of the Barrett government, they didn't go as far as we would've liked. Bill King was the Minister of Labour and was from the railway unions and a respected guy, former MLA; but Bill hired James Mackin as his deputy. Mackin was a Harvard educated Mormon, not that it has anything to do with it, but from the point of view, if you asked any, of all of us privately what was the problem, it was Mackin because his influence was very strong. Years later, there was a reception up at the Island Hall Hotel for some visiting trade unionists and Bill -- this was after I was gone and Bill was gone -- we were having a few drinks and he got to talking about the old days and he said, 'You know, one thing that really hurt me was when the Fed called for my resignation.' And he said, 'I never understood that.' And I said, 'Bill, you only made one mistake, and the mistake was Jim Mackin.' You know, I said, 'He didn't understand labour, he didn't like labour, labour didn't trust him. So, things that were done under his aegis might have been done by you directly and not been as...' So, I said, 'I don't know why you ever...' He said to me, and it's always been memorable in terms of Labour governments in Britain and everything else, he said, 'Clive,' he said, 'I spent my whole life on the ass end of a train. What did I know about legislation and all this?' And he said, 'That's why I had somebody that knew about it.'

KB [00:50:20] Wasn't there a Mackin that was the President or the CEO of the Business Council.

CL [00:50:28] The same guy.

KB [00:50:31] It was the same guy. He became, after he left government. Jim Mackin.

CL [00:50:34] Yeah, yeah.

KB [00:50:34] I remember reading some of his material.

CL [00:50:38] So anyways, the problems started, and they came down with the major Labour Code amendments. Yeah, Carolyn was Legislative Director then and she did absolutely brilliant analysis, very professional, of what was wrong, what was right, what was -- but even there, even within the Fed there was some division, because one of the things that the government had a taste for and some unions liked, was a binding arbitration. First agreement binding arbitration. The Fed inner core executive was opposed to it on principle.

KB [00:51:20] Yes.

CL [00:51:24] I guess that's an argument we would still have today.

KB [00:51:27] Yeah.

CL [00:51:29] And that was an issue that labour was a bit divided on, but the relationships were not that bad in that first year. There was a very ill-advised call for Bill King's resignation. That's one thing. Almost all the things the Fed did wrong I was part of, but that's one thing I was not, because I didn't go to Victoria. It was Len and John. They went to Victoria for this thing, and I was looking after things in Vancouver and I got a call saying, I think, I don't remember but it was probably John said, 'Len's going to call for King's resignation. Will you prepare something?' I said, 'You've got to be out of your mind.' I said, 'No, don't do it.' So, I didn't prepare it, but they went ahead and did it anyway. Which, you know, was totally -- Labour calls for the resignation of a labour minister in the NDP government. That's a recipe for problems, and then the problems were exacerbated coming up to the next election because Ray had decided to run. He'd done a lot of work in Burrard, Vancouver-Burrard, canvassing, built up a lot of support, especially amongst younger people. Ray Parkinson -- it was a two-member riding -- Ray Parkinson was clearly going to be the main candidate, and you know, in the course of things unfolding as we thought they should have, it would have been Parkinson and Ray. But partway through, Parkinson, who was a good man, I had a lot of respect for him. He asked Ray to meet with him. He said that Dave is very concerned that if you're a candidate, that labour issues and the Fed are going to become a big thing in this campaign and might cost us the election and doesn't think you should run. Well, we had a -- I don't think was full officers meeting again, I think it was a, you might say, inner circle meeting about it. We're all enraged and irate, but my recollection is that we said, you know, if the NDP loses the election, it's all going to be on the Fed. So, Ray didn't run. His supporters were so -- and they -- Dave had got his friend, Norm Levy to put his name forward. They were old friends, social worker friends, but the group supporting Ray was so pissed off that they recruited a young guy by the name of Pat Dodge, who was a leftist, later a gay rights activist, to run and he damn near beat Levy, but he didn't. So that, needless to say, caused a lot of bitterness, because Ray was going to get it as an NDP-er.

KB [00:54:52] Yeah, that's right.

CL [00:54:54] He was going to get it. A long term, active NDP-er and wanted -- was really more interested in politics at that point.

KB [00:55:02] Yes.

CL [00:55:02] So it caused a lot of bitterness and didn't go away for a long time.

KB [00:55:08] No, labour has a long memory, truly. When you left the Fed, you went to SFU in the Labour Studies program as the head. What was that like for you to move out of that?

CL [00:55:23] Well, there hadn't been a Labour Studies program.

KB [00:55:24] Yes, was that the start of the Labour Studies program?

CL [00:55:26] Beginning of it, and there wasn't anything there. I wanted to leave the Fed because I got along okay with Len, and worked okay with Len and with Dave MacIntyre, it was not the same. You know, you can't go home again. So, I was looking around and Art Kube, who was Education Director then, was keen on getting something going. Jack Blaney, who was head of Continuing Studies at SFU, his father had been in an IWA activist, and he felt a desire to do something for labour. So, he had met with Art for a long time about setting up a program. There was no program.

KB [00:56:13] Yes.

CL [00:56:14] It was really to provide a resource for the trade union movement and the years, two that I did it, that's all I was. I was at labour schools everywhere, teaching parliamentary procedure, public speaking, leadership. We didn't have programs. Oh, I produced some written stuff too. Manuals for CUPE, for public speaking and that kind of thing, but we didn't have classes. Later, Elaine Bernard took the program over.

KB [00:56:50] Yes.

CL [00:56:50] And of course, Elaine had an academic background, and I'm not sure -- I didn't follow it that much, to be honest, but I know that they started to do different things. But Jack was wonderful to me. Jack just said, you know. I had, of course, faculty advisors and one of them turned out to be, in fact, later was Ken Strand.

KB [00:57:16] Oh, yes.

CL [00:57:17] The former president of SFU. We had met Ken Strand earlier when Simon Fraser was having a battle with the young left at Simon Fraser and both sides came to the Fed, which is significant at that time. Len was -- it was Len and George then. and trying to think of the name of the youth leader Martin Loney, Loney I think it was.

KB [00:57:48] I don't recall that.

CL [00:57:49] A really left, you know, the left of that time. He came and met the officers and of course, talked down to them. Sort of lectured them on sociology and politics and everything else, you know.

KB [00:58:05] The reality of academic life.

CL [00:58:06] Then Ken Strand -- and of course, most of the Fed were sympathetic with the students and hostile to the administration. That was the sort of --- and then Strand met with them, and he was a smart man. He knew how to talk to these guys.

KB [00:58:24] Yes.

CL [00:58:26] And so we ended up, he ended up being my advisor, and we ended up having a relationship because I mentioned this seminar or something with Bill King, Ken Strand was the organizer, or the moderator. He was the one that ran it. He got me as secretary, that's the only reason I was there.

KB [00:58:44] Yes.

CL [00:58:47] So, I knew Ken for a lot of years, and he was a pretty good president, I think.

KB [00:58:52] Who followed you with the Labour Studies Program?

CL [00:58:55] Elaine Bernard.

KB [00:58:56] Oh, and then after Elaine.

CL [00:58:58] I am not sure.

KB [00:58:59] Petrie, I think, is a name that comes to mind.

CL [00:59:01] I'm not sure, I was out of touch by then. I was deep in the Building Trades.

KB [00:59:06] Yes. So, you went back into the Building Trades after?

CL [00:59:08] Went into the Building Trades, yeah. From -- in '82.

KB [00:59:13] Okay.

CL [00:59:16] Roy Gautier and Cy decided that the Building Trades needed a paper. That was the main thing I was hired for and produced some 10 or 12 issues. The Building Trades Banner, which I still have downstairs, and I'm very proud of it. A newsprint, but magazine format, trying to be something other than just, you know, typical. We had some good stuff in there.

KB [00:59:42] Was it a poster that you created, or the Building Trades created at the time? Is that what we're talking about?

CL [00:59:50] No, it was -- The Banner is misleading. That's the title of the paper.

BG [00:59:54] It's like a newsletter or paper.

KB [00:59:55] Oh, I know The Banner, yeah.

CL [00:59:56] The Building Trades Banner.

KB [00:59:57] I didn't know whether it was a separate produced event.

CL [01:00:00] Still a wonderful article that we had in one of those. I'm trying to think of the fellow's name. He was an author, newspaper writer, turned author in Vancouver, and he wrote a wonderful thing on the men who built the city. He was saying how when he was a boy, his father, who was a tradesman, had taken him downtown. High-rises were going up and had told him all the things that -- the men who built the city, and it had stuck with him, at that point, his whole life. Very impressive article. We had a -- that was the main thing I did, but again, everything you do in life has repercussions. There was a battle with the Labour Board at that time, and Paul Devine was a chairman of the -- D-E-V-I-N-E -- but he was a Vice-Chair of the Labour Board, and he issued decision that was very...

KB [01:01:06] Anti-
,

CL [01:01:07] Well, yeah, it wasn't deliberately anti-, but it was very harmful to the Building Trades. I remember putting out a pamphlet which we distributed everywhere saying, Devine Justice at the LRB. Later, when I went to work for the LRB, one of the first people I met was Paul Devine, and I worked quite closely with his wife who was a lawyer there, or Vice-Chair there. Once at a social event, I finally confessed to him that I was the author of it. Scurrilous, a scurrilous attack.

BG [01:01:42] That's funny.

KB [01:01:43] Excellent. Now, you stayed in the Building Trades.

CL [01:01:48] For seven years.

KB [01:01:49] Seven years, and then?

CL [01:01:51] Roy Gauthier was President, Al McMurray of the Tunnel and Rock Workers was the Secretary-Treasurer, and Cy Stairs and I were the principal staff people, not clerical staff.

KB [01:02:05] Kinnaird was around in those days.

CL [01:02:07] Kinnaird, yes, Kinnaird had been there before Roy, and Kinnaird had went to the Fed.

KB [01:02:14] Yeah. Pennyfarthing.

CL [01:02:16] I was -- I knew Kinnaird well, and in fact, he had invited me to come back and work for the Fed and I was still considering it when he unfortunately died prematurely.

KB [01:02:28] Yes.

CL [01:02:32] Anyways, yeah, it was -- again, it was a strong trade union-oriented group. Not a very compromising group.

KB [01:02:43] No.

CL [01:02:44] Principled.

KB [01:02:46] Two things: one question, and then a question of you. So, the last question that I have. What do you think the biggest issues are for labour going forward now?

CL [01:03:00] Yeah. Labour per se. Excuse me, I'm going to get some more water here. For labour per se, the changing nature of work, probably. Technology. Pardon me.

BG [01:03:26] No worries.

KB [01:03:27] Not at all. Do you want me to get you some more water?

CL [01:03:32] Cough drops will be more useful. You know, back when we first saw technology as a problem, we were thinking of machines. We weren't thinking of workplaces changing. We weren't thinking of people working at home.

KB [01:03:45] Yeah, telework.

CL [01:03:49] Of course, the very nature of unions has always been dependent upon people working together. As more and more people are not working together, I don't know what a union does. In the old days, quite old days, going back in the fifties and sixties and seventies in Britain, the Transport General Workers -- which was the biggest union by far -- developed a way to sign up individual stores. A grocery store, a tailor shop, everything else, and to function that way, even though there was no real -- I don't know if there's something there that can be done. I don't know if there's a way to incorporate individuals as such into a collective structure. I haven't really tried to solve it either. Leave that to younger, brighter minds. I don't -- you know, then all the other kind of problems we have in the country, of course, poverty and health, blah, blah, blah, those are labour. One of the things I was proudest of in the Fed is the Fed was, in that Haynes and Guy years, was very concerned about social issues, whether it was peace marches or --

KB [01:05:15] Apartheid.

BG [01:05:15] Vietnam.

CL [01:05:16] And even gay rights issues, early. You know, a lot of us oldsters have tended to feel that in the last decade or two, that the Fed has drifted away on those things. I think it's safe to say that none of us were fans of Ken Georgetti and of his administration. Again, it just didn't seem to have the social commitment.

KB [01:05:50] Yes.

CL [01:05:52] That may be totally unfair, but that's the perception. Things have changed again. I don't know the new people at the CLC.

KB [01:06:00] Yes.

CL [01:06:00] Now I no longer could even comment on anything, but that would be. In fact, over poker games, we've had many arguments about -- usually -- about what the Fed is not doing, or even what the NDP is not doing. See, either on the one hand, arguing that it's not fighting on the issues and so on; but the other concern has been the profile and the involvement in social issues. Now, the social issues change, and a lot of them are getting dealt with better even without labour. So you know, whether it's gay rights and now obviously, the new one I think is going to be more and more facing people is immigration related issues. I pick up the paper and start reading anti-immigration stuff. You know, 'these women coming here and having babies just so that...' I always look, I always look at the name and I always want to say, 'If it's not an Aboriginal name. You know, you're here on sufferance too.

KB [01:07:17] Yes.

CL [01:07:18] Like me, whose grandparents came from Scotland and Ireland, but anybody that's done it a few years ago don't seem to think that includes them anymore.

KB [01:07:29] Did your time in England, just to go back a bit, and your connection with the ILO (International Labour Organization) or understanding of the bigger labour body, did that -- did you bring those influences from your time in Europe?

CL [01:07:43] No, we didn't really have that much at that level. Like, you know, anything at that level was done with CLC.

KB [01:07:50] Okay.

CL [01:07:51] Once I declined the job, I never had much there anymore, other than when I was there.

KB [01:07:59] Yes.

CL [01:07:59] Doing my stint. Joe Morris, who was President of the CLC, ex-IWA, big, powerful craftsman. He and his wife came over for a visit to England, they wanted to go to Stratford and other places. His wife did, anyway. So, I was asked to rent a car and take them around, which I did for four or five days. Anyways, I had the car rental and went to their hotel to pick them up, and he came out. Of course, Joe got in the driver's seat while his wife got in the back seat. I got in the passenger seat, and we left. This is right in downtown London, and went several blocks with George scraping the curb, the wrong side of the street. Finally, his wife said, 'Joseph. You'd better pull over and let Clive drive. You're not doing very well.' Of course, I had been there for months and driven all over Britain, and he did. He just meekly got out and changed place with me. Then when we stayed -- and I think it was actually Stratford -- we stayed in a pub one night, and I didn't understand. I mean, Joe had been good to me and that, but I didn't understand this bureaucrat. We stayed in the pub and had dinner, his wife went up to bed, and Joe and I went in the pub. Probably 15 or 20, I don't even know what affiliation, working guys were there.

KB [01:09:40] Yes.

CL [01:09:41] Within the hour, Joe was the center, and they were all talking to him. Asking questions, wanting to know what he thought, and I saw how he became President of the IWA.

KB [01:09:52] Yes.

CL [01:09:53] He just had that ability to communicate with and to build rapport with other working guys. I mean, I just sat there having a drink and watched, you know, education. You learn a lot about people. I'd never given him credit for how he got to where he was.

KB [01:10:13] Absolutely.

BG [01:10:14] See him in action.

KB [01:10:15] The last item that I have is more of a question for you. If there are materials that you would be prepared to share with the Labour Heritage Centre that we could copy, photographs or any of that kind of material, that would go in and become archived in there and become part of it.

CL [01:10:34] Well, I'll go through anything I have. I don't have a lot.

KB [01:10:38] No, no.

CL [01:10:39] I've got some copies of The Banner.

BG [01:10:42] We would love it. We've been digitizing. Like, for example, Ray gave us a collection of scrapbooks he's got on all these different articles and thing, and so we've scanned them and returned them type thing. So, if you have anything, give us a shout.

CL [01:10:57] Well, I don't know if you ever saw the Sheet Metal Workers history? Did you get a copy?

KB [01:11:02] I do have a copy of that, yeah.

CL [01:11:04] My friend Cy and I, in 19 -- well, Cy was commissioned and got me on board -- in 1992 to produce the history of Sheet Metal Workers, because you know, I'd seen it. For their some anniversary or another.

KB [01:11:22] Yeah, 50, 60 years.

CL [01:11:24] It was a wonderful experience. I was already friends with Cy but I, of course, became very close because he would go out and he would interview old sheet metal workers.

KB [01:11:34] Tin-bashers. Tin-bashers, eh?

CL [01:11:37] Everything else, because that's what he was, but he was not an interviewer. So, he would do an interview like this, and then he would go to the next person he was interviewing. He'd spend the first 15 minutes recounting what we had talked about. So, I end up with these tapes, you know, an hour-long tape that had maybe five relevant minutes in it; but anyway, it was fun. We spent a lot of time together, and the Sheet Metal Workers always -- they had a pretty good working relationship with their employers. Most of the employers in the industry were themselves sheet metal workers.

KB [01:12:18] Yes.

CL [01:12:20] So, they were very cooperative, and they turned over a lot of stuff to us. The other interesting thing is that the union, long about the first decade or so of the century, had started turning over all of its minutes to UBC (University of British Columbia).

KB [01:12:40] Archives.

CL [01:12:40] Archives, and so we had tons of archival material to go through. Wonderful things like minutes of meetings in 1916, dealing with motions to ban smoking at meetings. Defeated, but there.

CL [01:12:55] Yes, yes.

KB [01:12:56] They also used to have a jointly sponsored thing, the employers at -- my mind is going, a big picnic every summer, at...

KB [01:13:14] On the island? Bowen?

CL [01:13:15] Bowen Island.

KB [01:13:16] Yeah, yeah.

CL [01:13:19] There would be big pictures, these panoramic pictures of all of the employers and the workers and their families.

KB [01:13:26] Yes.

CL [01:13:27] Cy and Linda and I went over there once. Cy was determined to get a picture where the big picture had been taken, and we did. We had a picture with Cy holding the picture in front of the same trees, which were a lot older and bigger.

KB [01:13:49] Yes.

CL [01:13:50] It was wonderful.

KB [01:13:51] Excellent.

CL [01:13:52] Anyway, in the course of that, you really saw the value of what was seemingly inconsequential material for archival purposes. I don't have much of anything, but I will certainly go through what I have. It's no good to me.

KB [01:14:14] The quarter inch, I'm assuming, it was a quarter inch tape. Would it have been?

CL [01:14:19] That we did?

KB [01:14:21] Yes, it was a quarter, or cassette?

CL [01:14:23] It was a reel-to-reel.

KB [01:14:24] Reel-to-reel. So, yeah, that's quarter inch.

CL [01:14:28] I don't think I kept those tapes. Transcribed them all.

KB [01:14:32] Oh, they were a transcript. Perfect.

CL [01:14:36] Yeah, I don't know, I'll see what I can find out. Once the book was published...

KB [01:14:40] Yes.

BG [01:14:40] Yeah, usually how things go.

CL [01:14:42] But, you know, it was a wonderful introduction to oral history, because for all of Cy's failings as an interviewer, there was gems that came out.

KB [01:14:52] Yes.

CL [01:14:53] The one, the best one I always use as an example. He interviewed an old, retired roofer, and in the Sheet Metal Union or industry, roofers are the, you know...

KB [01:15:06] Low end of the scale, with clatters.

CL [01:15:08] Guys that sell drugs and have tattoos; but he interviewed this roofer and did his usual thing. He spent 15 minutes talking about his previous interview and asked him some questions about roofing, you know. The guy had been a roofer for 40 years, and so Cy said, 'Oh, thanks a lot, Don'. Or whatever it was, and he was starting to put away his recorder. He said, 'You know, Cy, if I had to live my life over again, you know what I'd do?' Cy says, 'What?' He said, 'I'd go roofing.' He said, 'You know, it's the greatest thing in the world.' He said, 'You take your lunch bucket at lunchtime, you sit up there 15 stories above the city, and watch the world go by'.

KB [01:16:01] Yes.

CL [01:16:02] So, that's in the book.

KB [01:16:04] Yes.

BG [01:16:04] Great gem.

CL [01:16:04] That's the kind of things that jump out in oral history.

KB [01:16:07] Yes.

CL [01:16:08] Similarly, the great -- the great oral historian, name also stuck in my mind. Working. Anyway, you know, he interviewed hundreds of people in different occupations.

BG [01:16:28] Are you thinking of Howie Smith?

CL [01:16:29] No, this was an American who used to be on PBS (Public Broadcasting Service).

KB [01:16:34] Not the MacNeil/Lehrer gang?

CL [01:16:36] No.

BG [01:16:38] That's okay.

CL [01:16:38] Anyways, I've got his other books down there. He interviewed all of everything. Waitresses.

KB [01:16:45] Yes. Yes.

CL [01:16:46] It was the first really good use of oral history, and used to be on public radio.

KB [01:16:51] Yes.

CL [01:16:53] I -- There is one interview he did that stuck in my mind, because I run into it every day of my life over the last number of years. He interviewed an 85 or something year old piano tuner, and he asked him, he said, 'Do you ever think about retiring?' And he got a puzzled look and said, 'I'm a piano tuner. That's what I do.' It's relevant because we've been involved in owning horses and our trainer is the same age as me, and a lot of other trainers. They can't retire. They have no pensions.

KB [01:17:33] Yes.

CL [01:17:34] They would get the same answer. I'm a horse trainer, that's what I do.

KB [01:17:38] Yes, that's right.

CL [01:17:42] You know, I get up in the morning, and I go look after the horses.

KB [01:17:43] Campbell is a guy that used to interview in the States, it was -- not Joseph Campbell, but anyhow.

CL [01:17:53] Studs Terkel.

KB [01:17:55] Oh, yeah.

CL [01:17:55] That's who it was I was thinking of.

KB [01:17:57] Yes.

CL [01:17:58] Working, and Between the Wars. Anyways.

KB [01:18:03] Don Fearey. Remember that name?

CL [01:18:05] Oh, yeah.

KB [01:18:06] When I worked for ITAC (Information Technology Association of Canada) in 1995, I worked there for six years. Don Fearey was on the board of Sheet Metal, and I met him and Don Mowat and a bunch of the guys.

CL [01:18:18] When we were doing this history, we spent a lot of time with Don Fearey because of course, the apprentice -- he was head of the apprenticeship program there, and that was a big thing.

KB [01:18:25] Yes, yes.

CL [01:18:28] And a really nice man, Don. I liked him very much.

BG [01:18:35] So, one of my last questions that I've got is just to kind of fill out the rest of your timeline. So, we had you at the Building Trades in the eighties. What have you been doing since? What, nineties and --

CL [01:18:46] Well, for a couple of years after I left the Building Trades. The reason I left the Building Trades was very simple. It was a change in regime and the new regime headed by Len Werden. He was a great friend of Jack Munro.

KB [01:19:00] Yes.

CL [01:19:02] They had motorcycles together.

KB [01:19:04] Yeah.

CL [01:19:04] They were a different --

KB [01:19:06] Ilk.

CL [01:19:07] They were strictly, I'd say, old-fashioned building trades guys. You get the buck, and screw everything else. It was not a comfortable relationship. So, then I left, and the NDP government was just elected and I had some indication of some interesting jobs there, which for one reason or another didn't materialize. I found later that a black thumb had been put down on my name a couple of times. The Berger-Barrett still lives.

KB [01:19:47] Yeah.

CL [01:19:48] The combatants die, but -- well, Tom hasn't died, and I guess Dave is technically still alive. Anyways, so I went freelance, did some freelance work. I wrote two books which didn't get published, detective stories. I did do contract work initially for Gabelmann. He was Attorney General at the time, and I did some contract work for him in Victoria for a few months, and then I almost got a real job. Well, it still was contract. Anita Hagen was the Minister of Education, and in the eighties and into the nineties, you know, education relationships were a mess. School boards and local unions. Strikes and --

KB [01:20:36] Yes.

CL [01:20:37] Turmoil, and Anita contracted with me because of my background to undertake -- to work with local boards and local unions throughout the province just to try and improve relationships. I was very excited about because I thought it could be done. I mean, I knew people who were school trustees. So Linda and I went over, found an apartment to James Bay and moved in. The week I moved in, they replace Anita as Minister of Labour with Art Charbonneau from Kamloops, because they had decided to centralize teacher bargaining, which left really no purpose for Art.

KB [01:21:25] Yes.

CL [01:21:26] And also no purpose for me. So, I spent a few weeks there trying to find something to do, and then finally went in to Art and said, 'You know, ball the games changed, Art. I wish you well. There's nothing I can do here for you.'

KB [01:21:39] Yes.

CL [01:21:40] So, I left there. And then next year, in '94, I joined the LRB as -- I can't remember what my title was at the LRB, but -- an information officer -- but Stan Lanyon was the chair at that time. One of the things that they, since the LRB had been created by the Barrett government with Paul Weiler initially as the (guru? unclear). They had never had -- and it was really -- it had already developed into being a really good administrative body. Respected generally by both sides, a lot of good vice chairs, but they had no -- the lawyers and that dealing there, or non-lawyers, had no -- what they needed was a practice manual. So, I was actually mainly hired initially to produce a practice manual, which I spent a year and a half doing, you know, with various people. If they're still using it, it's a loose-leaf thing with things on various issues. What the law is, as developed by the LRB. So, that was the first couple of years; after that, I was an Information Officer. I had to do some educational stuff like that, but mostly I just answered phones and listened to people tell me how horrible their employer was, how horrible their employees were, or how horrible their fellow workers were.

KB [01:23:13] Yes.

CL [01:23:15] I did that for ten years; but, you know, just being old and having been around a long time, I learned to just sit and listen. Say yeah, I sympathize with them, and people feel better even if -- you know, they feel better, even though you haven't been able to solve anything for them.

KB [01:23:33] Just want to be heard. Yes.

CL [01:23:36] So, I did that. But the Labour Board, the LRB was a wonderful place to work. May still be. I still see a couple of good people in there. It just had a lot of people, from secretaries to files, who'd been there a long time and going back to Weiler years, had built this real commitment to the board.

KB [01:23:57] Yes.

CL [01:23:58] As an institution.

KB [01:24:00] Yes.

CL [01:24:00] I can't think of any other institution I've been exposed to that had such a strong commitment from ordinary employees.

KB [01:24:09] Yeah.

CL [01:24:10] To the -- and I think is still -- a lot of that's gradually probably gone, but some of it's still there. They had a succession of chairs.

KB [01:24:18] Yes.

[01:24:18] Stan, of course, took over and was very much great at that; and then, you know, as politics interfered then. When Stan was leaving, there was a strong push not only from the labour side but from some employer lawyers to have Carolyn Askew as successor, because she was eminently qualified. She was respected by the employer lawyers as well as the labour lawyers, and everybody was for that but the old bugaboo, Moe Sihota, who was very powerful -- is still powerful in the NDP -- hated Carolyn because, get this, because she went and ran for the nomination in Ladysmith against his friend who wanted the nomination, and he had never forgiven her. He was able, he had enough power to blacklist her appointment.

KB [01:25:29] Wow.

CL [01:25:29] It was terrible.

KB [01:25:30] Yes.

CL [01:25:30] It was terrible for the Board, and instead, an unfortunate choice was made who didn't work out very well. Unfortunately, he died very young, too, which was also unfortunate but -- so, it's -- and then they had Brent Mullin that's been the chair there, who is very much an employer lawyer. He hasn't done a bad job. He's kept the Board alive, because it's been more and more under fire. You know, just they don't want it.

BG [01:26:04] For existing, yeah.

CL [01:26:05] They don't want to have to deal with it.

KB [01:26:07] Yeah.

CL [01:26:08] Brent has managed to keep it going, and gradually the Mediation Commission -- Mediation Branch, which was a big part when I started there, there was about eight mediators and -- but again, they got away more to private mediation, privatized most of mediation. I think it's down to my friend Grant McArthur now and one other mediator, and Grant would retire if he could afford to.

KB [01:26:40] Well, that's all the questions I have, and I want to thank you for this. It's absolutely a fantastic interview. It's a very comfortable, very casual and tells it like labour is. That's the sense I get, and yeah, no, it's very much appreciated. This is stuff that has value for years, and that's why it's of value, as you were talking earlier. You know, the 1916 stuff out of the SheetMmetal Workers, we always come up with a statement of, we should have asked that question when that person was around. So, this is the track that Bailey is on, and she's leading it, doing a fine job, by the way. It's great to have you and your time.

KB [01:27:27] Well one, I don't know if you knew Clay Perry.

BG [01:27:31] We've heard of Clay.

CL [01:27:33] Clay was a wonderful historian himself and he did a lot of oral history with IWA guys.

BG [01:27:41] Oh, did he?

CL [01:27:41] And was involved in producing a TV thing that was on, I guess, on Knowledge Network or something. Clay died.

BG [01:27:48] He just passed away recently.

CL [01:27:49] Died last year. He was a friend. He was Research Director at the IWA.

BG [01:27:57] Okay.

CL [01:27:57] Very much an academic by nature.

KB [01:28:01] Did you know Don Jensen?

CL [01:28:03] Well, yeah.

KB [01:28:04] His brother was a business agent for Longshore. That's Lee Jensen. They've both passed now.

CL [01:28:11] Well, the longshoreman had some colourful ones.

KB [01:28:15] I was reading an article that had your name misspelled, actually, L-Y-D-D-L-E, and it talked about Lou Kauffman.

CL [01:28:27] Well, that may be me, because I've been quoted -- I quoted Lou Kauffman on a couple of things. He was a head of the Longshoreman for a while. Not typical. I used to ride around on a Harley with a 15-year-old girl on the back. He was an awful man, but he did an interview for the Enquirer, one of those tabloids, where he's -- I kept this for a long time, in a move, I guess lost it. He explained how the advantage he had when he was dealing with people because he was able to, just by looking at them, know what was going on in their mind. So, he had this tremendous asset. Lou was a nut-ball, but he made a memorable convention utterance, which we've -- it's become sort of folklore amongst a lot of my friends. The officer's report, of course, always a focal point of Fed conventions for criticisms and everything else. He got up, Lou got up to the microphone eventually and said, 'Well,' he said, 'there's been a lot of criticism of the officers here, and an awful lot of criticism.' He says, 'I don't think that's fair.' He said, 'They're doing the best they can. It's not much, but it's the best they can do.' And you know something? George was chairing and there was, I think, Len was there. They couldn't help but just laugh. You know, how well can you be skewered by somebody?

KB [01:30:07] Yes.
,

BG [01:30:08] Just busting. That's so funny.

CL [01:30:09] But I also was getting pretty good friends with Frank Kennedy.

KB [01:30:12] Yes, absolutely.

CL [01:30:13] Longshoremen.

KB [01:30:14] Yes.

CL [01:30:15] In fact, I helped Frank a bit when I was at the Board. He was retired then, and he was acting for some small union or others.

KB [01:30:26] Yeah.

CL [01:30:27] He didn't even know the Labour Code. He was so out of touch, and he was federal.

KB [01:30:32] Yes, federal jurisdiction.

CL [01:30:33] I was able to help Frank quite a bit, because he was a good guy. He and I had a wonderful night together. We had a delegation of Russian trade unionists from Odessa. Odessa labour council. Up at Harrison Hot Springs, in conjunction -- I don't think was in conjunction with the Winter School. Anyway, it was there, and you had all these -- the interesting thing, Odessa trade unionists looked like a bunch of Building Trades reps from 20 years ago, and they had a young woman with them who was so bright and nice. After a while, we realize that when we asked them a question. Question got asked, or sorry, the answer, which seemed to be quite brief, became a lot longer. We realized, somebody said, 'She's not just an interpreter.' She was.

KB [01:31:31] A leader of some sort.

CL [01:31:32] Political policeman.

BG [01:31:34] Right.

CL [01:31:36] It was interesting; but anyway, they brought us as a gift, something that I should never have been introduced to. Pepper vodka. They brought dozens of bottles of pepper vodka, which you don't -- you just chill it. You put in the fridge, chill it, and then you drink it. Well, Frank and I had had a few of those, and we took a bottle back to my room. I had a room there. My daughter, then was 14 or something, was there. So, Frank and I spent the whole night, literally all night. We finished the bottle of pepper vodka, and I think dug out some rye or something.

KB [01:32:16] On top of that.

CL [01:32:17] Until we were paralytic.

KB [01:32:18] Yeah, right on.

CL [01:32:20] Mostly we'd talk -- because Frank was a lifelong communist, but he did not like, I guess from years of McCarthyism, he did not like you to say, 'You're a communist.' He just didn't like that.

KB [01:32:38] Yes.

CL [01:32:39] We had a lot of fun, and a good supporter of the Fed and everything else.

KB [01:32:45] Yes.

CL [01:32:46] So anyway, the next morning I got up and went down to breakfast, and my daughter was already down at breakfast. She said, 'Boy, Dad,' she said, 'You sure must have got hammered last night.' I said, 'What?' She said, 'You never got your clothes off.'

KB [01:33:03] Yeah.

BG [01:33:04] Just fell right asleep.

KB [01:33:04] Spot on.

CL [01:33:06] Anyways, so I will see if I can find anything.

KB [01:33:10] Sure.

CL [01:33:11] You have the Sheet Metal book.

KB [01:33:13] I don't. I used it when I was putting together the Longshore history.

BG [01:33:18] We can find it, though. I'm sure.

CL [01:33:19] Yeah, I know. I can probably get a copy for you. I had about 10, which are about near gone. My friend Cy was very, very proud of it because it reflected not just his work on the book.

KB [01:33:38] Yes.

CL [01:33:38] It reflected where he spent his life.

KB [01:33:40] Yes, that's right.

CL [01:33:42] He was a wonderful man. He was self-educated. When I knew Cy, he lived for 25, 30 years in a basement suite out in Burnaby with a nice family. They all called him, the girls called him Uncle Cy. He loved Linda. He wasn't much for women generally, but he loved Linda. Well, anyways, Cy was a very intellectual man. He was probably more knowledgeable than most unionists I know on labour history and political history because he just -- his whole suite was books.

KB [01:34:29] Yes.

CL [01:34:32] He also had, I guess from his working days, he had big bloody hands. When he was chairing the Bargaining Council, The B.C. and Yukon Bargaining Council, it was fractious as usual. And. Frank Stevens at that time was the Cement Masons Union. A good man, but a man with a big alcohol problem. Frank often was unruly by the time he came back after lunch, and he was on this occasion. He was (imitating muttering). Cy got up out of the chair, went down the long table. The rest of us sat there and watched. He went all around the table and he took the back of Frank's shirt. He says, 'Stevens, if you don't shut your fucking mouth, I'm going to throw you out of here.' Frank shrinks back into his chair. He had a little guy who used to carry his briefcase around. About 5 minutes later, they headed out to the bar. The only thing that equaled it involved one of my non-friends, Jack Munro, with another non-friend, John Fryer. We had a Fed officers meeting. They were both officers. We used to fight with Munro and we got mad at him. We didn't like him, but he was a trade unionist.

KB [01:35:57] Yes.

CL [01:35:58] Fryer was never seen like a trade unionist, but he was an academic who ended up heading a big union. He was, you know, one day at an officers meeting again at a hotel. Munro stood up and said, 'Fryer, you know, shut your fucking mouth or I'm going to throw you off that balcony. I think that was the only time that Ray and all of them would have cheered Munro.

KB [01:36:27] Truly. Does Kate Braid, the name?

CL [01:36:30] Oh, yeah. She was later in that. She was a carpenter.

KB [01:36:34] Carpenter, yeah.

CL [01:36:34] Yeah, I met Kate. I didn't really know her. Yeah, I read some stuff that she'd done, thought that was really good.

KB [01:36:40] Yes. Yeah. She's been around for a long time. Know her well, actually from BCIT (BC Institute of Technology) I used to work there.

CL [01:36:47] Fryer affected my life because Len didn't -- became -- did not want to run again, and the collective decided that they wanted me to run. This was the election with Kube. The big showdown with Kube, and I was very tempted, you know. I said, 'I did not come through the ranks.' I said, 'You don't want a John Fryer.' 'Oh, you're not John Fryer, you're not.' Doesn't matter.

KB [01:37:22] Yes.

CL [01:37:23] I think if you if you haven't come through the ranks -- you could be useful -- if you haven't come through the ranks, you shouldn't be heading a union or a major labour organization.

KB [01:37:33] Yes. Yes.

CL [01:37:35] So, I declined. Len was pissed off, but then he ran again as a result. Changed my life.

BG [01:37:46] Last question for you. Do you have any names of people that you recommend us to talk to?

CL [01:37:55] Most of the ones I'd recommend are not with us anymore.

BG [01:37:57] Unfortunately. If you do come up with any, if you think of anyone that would be good.

CL [01:38:02] Oh, I'm sure I can.

BG [01:38:03] Oh, I'm sure. Exactly. Anyone involved in the labour movement, we're interested. Let Ken know.

CL [01:38:09] One of the unfortunate sidelines of our poker games is that we usually find out who's died since the last game, who's been at who's funeral. Every time there's somebody that, you know, you lose touch with people there.

KB [01:38:21] One of the other sides that we've discussed about, actually, in one of our meetings for the Oral History is there's a whole sector of legal beagles that are out there that were significant in the labour movement.

CL [01:38:35] Oh yes.

KB [01:38:35] And they are -- not their jurisprudence per se, but their knowledge of how we worked would be invaluable.

BG [01:38:46] Yeah, so those sort of names too.

CL [01:38:48] Carolyn Askew, of course, is a valuable resource.

KB [01:38:51] Yes, absolutely.

BG [01:38:53] So, yeah, any of those. If you can pass them along as they come along.

CL [01:38:56] I will think. I'm sure there's still some floating around.

BG [01:38:58] Yeah, there's got to be a few, I'm sure. It's been a great interview.

CL [01:39:02] I'll tell you somebody you should talk to is John Bowman. He was the staff representative of the Communication Workers. The C.E.P? Well, the big one. What the autoworkers became.

KB [01:39:24] CAW.

CL [01:39:25] CAW, and John is a wonderful man. He was a terrific, probably as respected as any union rep I've ever met at the Labour Board, because he was reasonable. He was fair, and you could trust him. Grant would say, 'You can't trust anybody. I mean, if you're a mediator, you don't trust anybody.' But he said, 'You can trust Jon Bowman.'.

KB [01:39:49] Yeah.

CL [01:39:49] Which said something. We bumped into John last year, and we've seen him as recently as a couple of weeks ago at the racetrack.

KB [01:39:59] Oh, yeah.

BG [01:40:00] He's retired, (unclear) but he busks every weekend. He busks at the farmers markets in Coquitlam and so on. I didn't even know he played guitar or did anything. The reason we've found him, Linda's been involved in an organization called New Stride, which finds new careers for retired racehorses.

KB [01:40:20] Yes.

CL [01:40:23] Supported by donations and so on, and Linda was handling the finances. Every month, you know, it'll be $50 from here, $50 from there, and she kept getting these $7.95 -- no, not ninety-five, but $7, $8.50, $12, and couldn't figure out where these odd little amounts were coming from. Then found out that John goes busking, and whatever he collects, he donates to New Stride.

BG [01:40:57] Oh wow, that's amazing.

BG [01:40:59] you don't have to have a number for him.

CL [01:41:01] Oh, yes, Linda does for sure. I can probably get it off her.

KB [01:41:06] Yeah.

CL [01:41:08] He is really a bright, articulate, thoughtful man. He was interesting because he was part of the sort of CAIMAW group.

KB [01:41:17] Oh, yeah.

CL [01:41:18] But he wasn't, you know. He was and he wasn't. He was also, I guess, he was more of a technical support person. I mean, he didn't -- a terrifically capable man.

KB [01:41:35] Did you know John Davies?

CL [01:41:37] No.

KB [01:41:37] Okay. How about Cy Succamore.

CL [01:41:41] No. Oh, Jess Succamore.

KB [01:41:43] Oh, yeah.

CL [01:41:44] Yes, and it's an interesting thing about -- I'm trying to think of the other CAIMAW leader whose brother is a rock musician. Jef --

KB [01:41:58] Keighley.

CL [01:41:58] Keighley.

KB [01:41:59] Yeah, we've got him. He's on the list to be interviewed.

CL [01:42:02] Well, you know, I'll only say this because of what follows. Loudmouth, you know.

KB [01:42:13] Sean is doing that interview.

CL [01:42:14] A good, hard-working, committed guy, absolutely; But one of those people that pops off. When I was -- when the announcement came out that I had been appointed as information Officer for the board, Jef wrote an irate letter to Stan about this BC Fed NDP hack. Just as only Jef could write.

KB [01:42:44] Yes.

CL [01:42:46] Then he, you know, Stan being Stan said, 'Come in and talk about it.' So Jef did, and Stan went all through my background. Jef wrote a follow-up letter. apologized, you know, that he hadn't known all this and he had written it before he knew.

KB [01:43:06] Spouted off, yeah.

CL [01:43:07] He did send a copy to me.

KB [01:43:08] Excellent.

CL [01:43:09] So, I always think somebody that can say, 'I was wrong.'

KB [01:43:13] Solid integrity.

CL [01:43:14] They got a lot of points in my book.

BG [01:43:17] Definitely.

KB [01:43:17] Susan Anderson, does that name come to mind?

CL [01:43:19] It does, and I can't place the name. It does.

KB [01:43:21] She was the woman that did the core review at the Fed, around the province. She went around.

CL [01:43:28] Yeah. I don't think I -- I don't remember.

KB [01:43:31] Tom Kozar, that was his partner.

CL [01:43:32] Oh, yeah. I knew Tom.

KB [01:43:34] Tom's partner was Susan Anderson.

CL [01:43:37] Now, one person that didn't get mentioned that should have. Gail Worst became a Women's Rights Officer for the Fed. Gail was a local supporter of the farmworkers, California Farmworkers. As I mentioned in the material, the Fed was actually able to get California grapes out of Safeway and some other places. They had a -- one of those wonderful, dedicated young women whose parents were both professors at Stanford. was here, you know, living in somebody's basement. Working for the farmworkers. Nancy Welsh. Everybody loved her. Everybody fell in love with her, literally. She was here for a year or so, and then they moved her somewhere else. The need was somewhere else, and Gail was appointed to take her place.

KB [01:44:34] Oh, okay.

CL [01:44:39] Gail didn't have any of the qualities that Nancy had, but she was very dedicated. An Intelligent, capable person, and she ended up being hired by the Fed as a Women's Rights Coordinator. I guess Astrid had gone then. I don't remember details. Gail did that for a year or two and was very active in the women's rights stuff in Vancouver. I've lost all touch with her personally, though.