Description

Il est arrivé au Canada en 1923 et il avait environ seize ans. Il est retourné aux Indes pour se marier en 1932 et il est revenu en 1934, avec son épouse. Au Canada, il est d’abord allé à l’école mais lorsqu’il s’est aperçu que son père ne gagnait que 0,32$ l’heure, il a quitté l’école pour travailler. Son père était au Canada depuis 1907. De 1928 à 1932, il a travaillé dans une scierie sur l’île de Vancouver et il gagnait 0,40$ l’heure. Les travailleurs de la scierie habitaient dans des dortoirs et ils se cotisaient tous pour payer les services d’un cuisinier. Il décrit les dimensions des dortoirs et il explique pourquoi, selon lui, les Blancs considéraient les Indiens comme une race inférieure [dominance britannique]. Il raconte un incident montrant que les employeurs ne donnaient pas d’avancement aux Indiens. Il parle de la syndicalisation des scieries et d’une grève qui a paralysé la scierie où il travaillait pendant six semaines.

Il décrit l’incident de Kama Ghatta Maru [on a empêché des passagers indiens de débarquer du bateau pour immigrer au Canada]. Il est heureux de vivre au Canada parce que ses enfants jouissent d’excellentes possibilités d’avenir. Il partage son opinion sur la situation aux Indes après 1947 et au Punjab [demandes des Sikhs]. Il parle de l’attaque d’Harmandar Sahib et de deux hommes [Tohra et Longowalia] qui ont escroqué des fonds aux indo-canadiens, dans un Gurdwara, sous prétexte d’envoyer de l’argent aux victimes d’Amritsar. Il décrit son opinion de Bhinderanwala [un escroc]. Il raconte qu’on refusait de servir les Indiens dans les brasseries de Duncan et que les barbiers refusaient de couper leurs cheveux. En 1949, un avocat d’origine indienne ayant étudié en Angleterre (Nahar Singh) est venu défendre leur cause de discrimination. Il y avait un Gurdwara à Hill Creset en 1934, bâti par la scierie. Il a fait partie du syndicat International Wood Workers et il s’est beaucoup impliqué dans le syndicat., [This transcript was created by optical character recognition (OCR) software and the accuracy depends on the quality of scanned images and complexity of original text.]

SIKHS IN CANADA
Interviewer: Professor, B. S.: Solaria Department of Sociology

SIKHS IN CANADA
Interviewer: Professor, Bhupinder Singh Bolaria
Date for the Interview: July 20th
Time begin: around 11:30

Language: Would be conducted in Punjabi language.
B. S.: How old are you now?
Informant: I am 78 years.
B. S.: Khat is your marriage status?
Informant: I am widower.
B. S.: How many children do you have?
Informant: I have three sons and four daughters.
B. S.: Which part from India do you come from?
Informant: Village Khara city Jagroan, Distt. Ludhiana, Punjab.
B. S.: When you came here, how old were you at that time?
Informant: I must be more than 16.
B. S.: When you came here, what was your marital status then?
Informant: I was single at that time.
B. S.: When did you get married? Were you married here?
Informant: No, I was not married here. I stayed eight years here and spent sometime in school, and some on work, then after eight years I went to India in 1932.
B. S.: In which year did you come here first time?
Informant: 1923 September 17.
B. S.: So, you stayed here then went back to India then?
Informant: Yes, I went back afterwards.
B. S.: So, you got married there?
Informant: Yes, that is right.
B. S.: So, after you got married then when did you come back here?
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Informant: I I stayed 13 months over there and came back here in 1934 with my wife, I brought her with me.
B. S.: Your family came with you?
Informant: Yes, she did.
B. S.: When you came here first time what you used to do there in India, you were farmer/
Informant: No, I used to go to school.
B. S.: You used to go to school, so you were studant over there?
Informant: Yes, that is right.
B. S.: Which grade you were in?
Informant: I was in grade nine.
B. S.: And after that you did not study here?
Informant: No, I Attended High School here, in New West Minister. I was very fond of studying but I could not pick up English, so, I realized that my father was working 32 cents an hour and I could not get through and I am waisting his money. After that, I started working.
B. S.: Why did you come here in Canada, what was the reason?
Informant: My father called me here.
B. S.: When did your father came here?
Informant: He came in 190?.
B. S.: Now you can tell whatever you want to tell about him.
Informant: When I came here, he came to receive me and got me home. At that time approximately 10,000 East Indians here in Vancouver, Colonay, Kamloop and in Duncan almost 10,000 our people were here, among them one or two persons were grade eight or so, rest of them were illiterate keeping their hair and turbans. So, I was quite young and was fond of studying and I started going to school.
B. S.: So, as your father was already here and you got the information about Canada from your father?
Informant: Yes, I got most of the information from him but Other people who were here they used to tell me about it. We were the only three boys or persons who got grade eight or nine, one was Bakhtawar Singh Katani, myself and the other was Sadu Singh Dhami from Hoshiarpur and Nahar Singh from Kubbay he was going to the University, so like that we were four five people who could write name or anything like that.
B. S.: Tell me when you came what was the condition in India, like economic eongition, poll tide, social and religious condition?
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Informant: In India there was not any kind of struggle like that those days. When the English people came in India I remembered that time too, about their rule, I like very much the way they ruled, British rule was good. I believe them very honest people whether they were not opening the school and wanted to keep us uneducated so that they could rule on us forever. But if we see what promise they would do or make they used to keep it.
B. S.: At that time any politicle or religious matter was not there?
Informant: No, not at all.
B. S.: Now tell me about the passage although I know that your passage was arranged for you by your father, but tell me that you came by sea ship?
Informant: Yes, by sea ship.
B. S.: What were the travelling conditions on the ship?
Informant: They were good we were four boys who came at that time togather, from Ludhiana Khalsa School, myself Sant Singh Dakha, Hari Singh Jhorar and Jagat Singh Mohi he was grade ten. Sant Singh's brother was in America. And he came for his education, at that time people used to come for the education here,
B. S.: Tell me how your father came here in Canada?
Informant: I can tell you aboutTt liltle bit, when he came in 1907 he heard the news from the village that Canada is open, so let us go. So, from I our village Sundar Singh Dulla Singh my father and Ishar Singh so these y four came togather when they heard about Canada. They came to Hong Kong / and at Hong Kong people knew more about Canada compare to our villagers, \ from Hong Kong they came here. J
B. S.: When you came here, what was your immigration status?
Informant: I came to stay with my father, because he called me here.
B. S.: Did you get any kind of papers at that time?
Informant: No, I did not get any paper, but his papers when the Canadian Immigration passed the law that you could call your families and the children under 18 years those papers were with me, and I gave those papers to this boy and he has them.
B. S.: I see, When Hecalled you ia you told me before that they passed the law in 1919 that you can call your families etc.
Informant: Yes, they passed the law in 1919 or 1920, and then I came in 1923-B. S.: Then your father must be the citizen of Canada? J, S. May be. (the other voice)----no he was not.
B. S.: Yes, they were not the citizens at that time, they got the rights later on.
Informant: No, he was not citizen at that time.
B. S.: What was his status here at that time, do you have any idea?
Informant: What status I can tell he had, they were poor illeterate persons.
B. S.: No, I mean did you get any kind of papers he had them and on the basis of those he called you here?
Informant: I told you I gave these papers to my son.
The son: There was a letter when my grandfather applied for him to come to Canada.
B. S.: So, you came as a. family dependent. And now, I am going to ask some general questions, that you tell me your history about your job and where did you work and what were the conditions over there, just tell me in your own words?
Informant: When I used to go to school then I used to work in the holidays in the Mills at New West Minister. Then after the holidays I again used to go to school. In 1928 in the month of January I came here in this Island. Here I worked steadily from 1928 till 1932 so five years I worked here. Then the wage was 40 cents an hour.
B. S.: Where were you working?
Informant: What do you mean by where I was working?
B. S.: Where, which Mill you were working in?
Informant: Hill Breset Lumber Company three miles from Duncan on this side.
It was on the old hill. There almost 60 East Indians were working in that
Mill.
B. S.: So, they were paying you 40 cents an hour, and you told that you worked for five years over there?
Informant: Yes.
B. S.: You started with 40 cents an hour and did it stay 40 cents a hour or your pay was increased or decreased?
Informant: No, I started 40 cents an hour and it was minimum wage if somebody had any kind of quality like grader or other than that he would get five cents more.
B. S.: Tell me when you were working there, were there other people except East Indians who were working there with you?
Informant: Sixty Chinese, fifty or sixty Japnese and fifty or sixty East-Indians, three different or separate Camps were there, bunk house were built and we used to live in those bunk house, one man used to cook for those 50 or 60 men, three dollars twenty cents one day's wage we used to give to the cook, sixty men used to pay to him. Three dollars and twenty cents was one day's or eight hour's pay. So, cook would cook two three times we would eat and sleep there.
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B. S.: Were there white people too, who were working there?
Informant: The white people were more, must be at least 250 white men working' there, they were from Duncan's area.
B. S.: So, they were working there too?
Informant: Yes, they were working there too. They were living in Duncan, there might be few who were living there otherwise they were living in Duncan.
B. S.: All our Asians, Japnese, yourself East Indians and Chinese, were they paying less than the white people or workers?
Informant: No, in Hill Creset Company where I was working the pay was equal for everyone, if the wage was less then it was in the Mayo Lumber Company, Chinese were getting less East Indians were getting less wage and the Japnese were also getting the same as the Chinese and our people, and the white people were getting five cents more than us all. It was in our Mill.
B. S.: You mentioned about the bunk houses, tell me the condition of the bunk house you were living in I mean our bunk house?
Informant: There were rooms like I would say 40 feet wide and 60 or 80 feet
long in the middle there was hall on the sides there were rooms in some room there were two men or more in some there was one and so on, we did not have to pay the rent, as soon as the pay increased more than 40 cents then they started getting the rent from us whatever more wage we used to get actually it used to go to the rent and we would receive the same 40 • cents an hour. __
B. S.: Now I would ask about the terms these white people are using now or these days they would call you Paki, you tell me wl ere the using some-kind of these terms against the East Indians at that time like they do now, this is just an example, any other term or threat?
Informant: No, they did not use these terms but they did not treat us equally, they were not thinking we are equal.
B. S.: They would not treat us equal, could you tell your ideas about it or your opinion, why they would not think us equal?
Informant: First thing India had been a slave country for many many years. Five hundred years we were the slave of British people. Here in this area in Duncan, or in Victoria, English people are so many who had ruled over country, in their eyes.... one time I went to the store at 10 in the morning at Duncan, and I bought some grocery and I was coming out of the store then one man almost more than six feet tall having the moustaches came to me and said sat sari akal, I said to him good morning, he said ha, ha he laughed and said you became English, he said you people in India or Punjab used to call us Sahib Lok, I said that is quite right, but it is Canada not India.
B. S.: So, their attitude was that Hindustanis are not equal?
Informant: Oh, yes, they were feeling that way.
B. S.: The other Asians like Japnese and the Chinese, what kind of attitude did they have towards the East Indians?
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Informant: The Chinese suppose we are sitting togather and started arguing on something they used to say, oh God Daman you don't have a King. They used to say that you got no king, so they would say when we had any little argument.
B. S.: The white workers who were working with you or with our East-Indians did they think we are not equal, what was their attitude towards us?
Informant: Oh yes, they were thinking that we are not equal to them.
B. S.: Tell me when you were working at that time were you satisfied with your job compare to now? v
Informant: You had to be satisfied with the job because you could no^do
anything about it. We could not ask for anything, they would not give us . One time I was working at Ubo there was somekind of opening of more money, I said to the Superintendent that I want to take that job, he told me that you would not be able to do that, he said, you cannot do it. I said, I can quit it too, I would quit it then. He said, no, no, what would you then, I said, I would go and find some other job somewhere else. He said, no, no, we would not let you go. The only thing was that, that job had 25 cents more, because he knew when we people get the job they would never quit it. That is why they did not let me get that job because there you would get at least 25 cents more an hour. The white people do not stay! on the job for a long time today they are here then next day they would 1 quit the first one and go somewhere else, so that is why they would not <____^J giving our people that work where *p# the pay was more.
B. S.: As you told that the bunk houses were separate for the Asians like Japnese had their own and East Indians had their own and so on, but was there any kind of segregation on work too, I mean the good work, and the heavy or hard work, the white people were on good work things, like that?
Informant: No, that was mixed, Chinese Japnese and the Whites they were working togather there.
B. S.: But the good work like for that work you get more wage etc. that was given to the Whites?
Informant: Yes, that is quite right. ,
B. S.: And, would they promote our people like foreman or any position ^ like that?
Informant: Say the name of God, no, they just have our people foreman in these days may be in the last two or three years. One man, he is one of my friends and working in Ninamo , Harbans Singh Sandhu he knew quite bit grading and knew the language too, there they had the opening from grading to foreman so, he applied for that job, they offered him that position, but at the same time the white workers went to the Company and said, we wouldn't take him, we will not be here we would go, so he was fired from that work and he said that you selected me and you must have thought of anything about me, so he had to quit that work from there and took two months leave then went to Ninamo and worked for two months in Japnese' s Mill, then he asked the first Company if they would issue him a certificate, they said sure. So, he quit that job and now working as a Supervisor at the other place.
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B. S.: So, they would not give the promotion to the East Indians?
Informant: No, they would not. I was doing the grading too I did that type of job almost three years. Our Grading Foreman said to me, that you are putting mark wrong, lasked him how long I have been working or grading, he said almost three years. Then I said, you came to know today that I am putting wrong marking. I asked him how come I got that ticket for grading, I told him that you do not like me. The foreman went to the boss and said, I don't want this fellow. I threw everything at that place, and started pulling the planks (Phatays), after that I worked for 25 years here. After 25 years then I got my pension, but they did not give me higher job.
B. S.: So, you worked 25 years at that place?
Informant: Yes, I worked there, and I used to go from here then I got ray pension in 1972.
B. S.: Now tell me about the Unions, and you tell me how many hours did you have to work all these types of things?
Informant: Union did useful thing for all kinds of people or nation, Chinese East Indians and Japnese too any nationality they belonged to, the Union did very good work. The Union had them pass the law that whether someone is Japnese, Chinese, East Indians or any nationality he belongs to he should get the same wage for the same work as the white people. So, that is why with the help of the unions we would get the grading work, machinery and running the Carry etc. So, this is the Union which helped everybody.
B. S.: When did the union come, where you were working?
Informant: In 19^ we were on strike for seven weeks, the Mill was closed for seven weeks, they gave 15 cents more an hourly wage and they gave aslo the rights to work like grading, or work on machinery all sort of things, this is because of the Union, that we got all these working and other rights.
B. S.: So, at the time of strike, our people were active in the union before that strike?
Informant: Yes, they had to come because they could not do anything alone. We got the rights because we gave them the cooperation otherwise we wouldn't get anything like that.
B. S.: But our people, they were all on strike at that time?
Informant: Oh, yes they were all in.
B. S.: Then after that, they told that you can come to the grader and work on the machinery, and you cannot do any discrimination?
Informant: Yes, they said these things. There was one principal who came from South Africa, he was white man who went from here to teach in Africa. When he came back here he became a Manager here in our Ubo, then at that time I raised my voice and said that this man just came yesterday and you gave him grading ticket and I have been working that many years, why you are not giving me one, I said to the foreman too, he said, we will see in the next term, I said, no, no and keep your mouth shut, I will go to the office and talk to the Manager. The Manager saw the condition of the slavery in South Africa, he published the letters and gave to all the foremen, he told that
page 8
from today the man who has little bit qualification you have to give them a job, no matter he is Chinese or Japnese East Indians or anybody. That is all then they gave me the grading ticket.
B. S.: At that time they were calling all our people Hindu?
Informant: Yes, they were calling Hindu to everyone whether he is clean
shaved or keeping the turban. But the thing is that, people who used to feel something like us they used to feel kind of hurt when they would call them Hindu. Actually we are Hindu like from Guru Nanak to Guru Gobind Singh we were Hindu.
B. S.: Before the Union there did you have any job security where you were working? Or they would kick anybody out whenever they wanted?
Informant: No, there was no job security. Whenever they wanted they would kick you out, like sometimes at 3:30 they would bring the efi- slip and give to you that we don't have a job,don't come tomorrow.
B. S.: Was there any turn over rate for the job for our people and the other, or they would keep on the same work, I mean people would go to work to other places and leave that work?
Informant: Oh, yes they would go. Suppose I work in Ubo and if I would get job near and have five cents more then I would leave that job.
B. S.: And at that time jobs were quite many?
Informant: When I was working 40 cents an hour then after that I used to get 50 cents at Shell- Lake between Victoria and Duncan ?
B. S.: When, in which year was that?
Informant: 19 ^0. From there I went to Hormymoonlay in 1942, here one of our men who was of my age, knew language well too, said to me that you are all alone here, come to me there, he was trying to take me there because he he was suppose to be the foreman or supervise on our people, when you do not have the people who you are going to be the foreman for, so, he had the Company write, that I would supply the people and it would be up to me to hire or fire them. So, he brought me here in 1942 and I worked there one year and half, then he fired me for somekind of reason. Then I /got the truck and would sell the wood here and there, then went to Ubo, Vthen again they hired me.
B. S.: Anything else you like to tell about work or experience which I did not ask you, you tell me what you like to tell by yourself, like about the work and its condition, your own experience because you know?
Informant: I can tell when you ask me a question, otherwise I do not remember and they would come to me when you would ask me. I cannot tell by myself if you ask me then I would answer to your question.
B. S.: I was asking that other people Hindustani, were there they ...
Informant: The old timers, Bhupiner, they had so much love and respect it was limitless which we cannot explain, your son came or your nephew came, or any of your relative came they would love so much do not ask me how much it is limitless, the people who came now, they say, you die and leave your
page 9
cot to us. I do not trust them a little bit even, if you ask the truth. They say something and do something else. They are very jealous cheat do nothing but wanted everything. People who came from 1970 up to now they are all like that.
B. S.: Now, tell me when you were first here you were alone and living in the bunk house, and when you came back after you got married, how you were living then?
Informant: We did not have a.house then, we would get a house on rent, used to pay the rent and living there. ./
B. S.: Where were you living? In Duncan?
Informant: Whereever I used to work, I worked in Ubo and would live in Duncan I would go to Duncan and stay there but working at Ubo. And I worked in Shany Lake and used to live in Duncan too. When I got work here in Honey-moonlay then I stayed with one of my friends one month and then I got this place. Here, they had the sign 25 acres for sale and get contact with Victoria Lumber Company , I read the sign and phoned the Superintendent, he said,...1 asked still this place is on sale, he said yes. So, I told him I would come to you tomorrow, and he said, yes come and meet me in the office, So, I went there I had a broken car I drove there and took that sign with me and showed him that it is your sign, he said yes, I asked him how much you are asking for it, he said, 1500 dollars, 25 acres and $1500. I gave him the cheque worth $500 and told him that I would pay you $50 a month and I would pay the whole amount within one year, he got agreed and he gave [me the receit. The people who were working here they heard I gought this 125 acres land, all those foremen and others went to the Superintendent, they said, we would pay you more and sell this land to us. He told them [that you pay him more he would sell it to you. It means our people are rery jealous, but I would tell you that these white people if they say yes to you then it stays yes. They do not change,we people can slip for little and very easily.
B. S.: Your social life was with the East Indians only or you had the relations with non Hindustanis too, or more with Hindustanis?
Informant: No, I had the relations with others too. Here we have a Coop Store and I was the first member of that store. And here we have a Canadian-Union and I was the first member in it, because I knew little bit language, and used to understand when they used to talk. Still I am the member of these two.
B. S.: So, it means when you used to meet the people then there was not anykind of discrimination?
Informant: No, socially there was no discrimination I mean when you meet them there was no discrimination. But, here the white people are all around to our place, nobody comes to my place neither I would go without asking or inviting. Our people would phone me and Iwould do the same thing if they wanted to come then they would come and same way I used to go and visit them too.
B. S.: But your social life with the people out was not that much it was with the white people?
Informant:
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Informant: No, I had social with the people who used to invite me or would call me. I would not go just like that, now here is this hotel, and I know this family since very long, I would go to his place and go there, one time I got sick and that lady came to my house and told me that your son phoned that you are sick and tell me what could I do for you, and phone me whenever and any time you need any help, so some people are nice.
B. S.: What was your religious here?
Informant: Religious life was just like that, I wanted to cut my hair just like you, when I used to go on city bus to my school because my class fellows used to force me for that, what the hell take this turban off, I told them who would keep me and give the meal my father would not give me the meal, he would not let me in the house. I did not hurt my father's feelings so I kept my hair, then after wards when I got steady on my work then I have my children cut their hair. My oldes son used to get up early in the morning and I had to tie his turban for him......
B. S.: This is new paper?
Informant: Yes, it is yesterday's paper. I just got last night from Vancouver.
B. S.: Ok, ji, we will see later on.
Informant: Yes, we will see it later on but I want to tell you this that on one side this is Premier Bill Benette is standing and this one is my son.
B. S.: Right, what does he do there?
Informant: He is in the Stock Marketing, the New York Stock Marketing, he has been there since 15 or 18 years. So, he is supporting this party, I am also supporting this party too. In Ottawa there are two parties Conservative and Liberal and here Social Credit, my children follow me I told them that I belong to this party whether I am poor or rich whatever it is, again it is up to you an I am not forcing you.
B. S.: Now, still you are active politically in Canada?
Informant: I do not give any speech, I am not a lecturer, but I go one way, like they recruit the people in the Army they these Army people are taught only one thing that you have to go straight whether there is water or pitch or whether somebody shoot you or you shoot somebody. So, where I am stading I am still there, I do not listen to anybody whatever I think right I would do it, I do not want to go in the wrong way.
B. S.: When your father was here, did fcse ever talk about his experience and like the incident of Kama Ghatta Maru?
Informant: In 191^ Kama Ghatta Maru came here, in which Baba Gurdit Singh was there, he brought that ship here and he rented that ship from the Japnese. In that ship, from Hong Kong Japan or any where else he took them all, ^0 people came on that ship, but the English did not let them anchored the ship on the Ghatt. Our people could visit them, so, the members of the Gurdawara and the other people who knew little bit how to talk they went there and asked them what we could do for you. They told them that we came here to stay but they are not allowing us to anchors the ship.
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The said, ask for the money as much as you need and we will bring the Horries at night time around 2 or 3*' clock but you keep on watching and we would bring the ropes too. So, this way they got ^4-0 people from Kama Ghatta Maru, then they got them free after many years. That is all I know about it. There was one white man who was called Hopkins he was saying that give me fifty dollars per man and I would bring your men. The Chinese gave him $500 and said let our people come through. Our Gurdawara people said, Ranghar...(cruel) ...$50 dollars, that is nothing if a person would come from India I am leaving this in the middle here...
I heard a new thing when I was living there, there were people from Fijji they had daughter who was marriageable, our people like me sardar jee, they said that we are to call the boy from Punjab, they said we will take $10,000 and here is the girl sitting you see and we will do everything like the wedding etc. it is up to you you do it or don't , I was sitting there with one of my friends. There were eight cars standing there worth $30 000, my grandchildren said, grandpa their daughter got engaged today v so, I mean Uganda people do that.
B. S.: Now you tell me this that when we come out from our country then we have some dreams and the aspirations, you tell me that your dreams are fulfilled here?
Informant: Whatever I did or tried I would say that my aspirations are all fulfilled. But, the people who came later on they dashed all those things to the ground whatever I did here. Now I do not interfere into any body's matter and I do not think that I should help this person or that person. One new person came here from India, you are new do not know English, although I might have brought him, to put the fare is an ordinary thing but to keep him and take all the responsibility is like a mountain. When this kind of person stayed with you one year or more and after that he would say when I asked you to bring me here, it was my bad luck that I came here. Now, we say that you call and show how you would bring your brother-in-law
or any other relative, I actually call ........ then I would think you
are human beings.
B. S.: So, you think that was your right decision to come to Canada?
Informant: No, I do not know about that, because I was a child at that time, so I wouldn't know this.
B. S.: Now, if you look back then you think your decision was right? Informant: Quite right, I do not want to go and see, I sold my plots there. B. S.: I see, so, what do you think of the future fif your children?
Informant: They came in the heaven, people are saying in India that they would give 50 000 or 100 000 to you but take our daughter or our son there. Because I did not go just once, I went in 1966, in 1932 then in 1966 and in 197^4- and 1975 then in 1980, I went there four five times after I got retired. So, I have seen the conditions over there, if you keep on giving something to them then it is alright and they would give you meal or things like that and if you wouldn/t give anything or stopped giving something then they would give or put something in your meal and would say ok go away now. I don't trust anyone sometimes I used to eat in the city. I did not trust my family.
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B. S.: So, you say that your children's future is very good here?
Informant: Yes, quite right. They are getting $30 000 and $40 000 a year. They have beautiful houses worth $200 000 or little less and they have two cars each one of them, what more they want.
B. S.: How many sons did you tell, three?
Informant: Yes, three. He is my oldest son who is wearing a bo tie and he is in the University, in the hospital.
B. S.: And what other two are doing?
Informant: One is in Calgary, he is zeologist and is the Presidant in the Mining Office, he must be k& years and married to a white girl and he got one daughter. He sometimes phone toask the things how they are, and this one is the younger one, he is also in good position and also married to a white girl he knows punjabi quite bit.
B. S.: ATnd how about your daughters they are aiso married here?
Informant: Yes, my daughters are married here too.
B. S.: What do you think of India after 1947?
Informant: The people who came now, they do not like Mahatma Gandhi and Nehru, I said, you are just 30 years of old what do you know about Gandhi, Nehru or Lalla Lajpat Rai, they said it is written in the bookd, there are so many like me foolish who write the books, but you think with your own brain. They got the 400 hundred people out of the country without any fight and anything like that, gradually they got them out while they were ruling, and you call them they are bad or do not like them, I said, you are the foolish one who does not have any sense. After that 30 years Gandhi's party ruled, and when in 19^7 they were getting separated then English people said to Nehru, look we are going within ten years when Hindu and Muslims, when you would not get along we will come back just the same as we were here in the last 4 or 5 hundreds years, he said, you give me ten years I give you eleven years, so this is called brain, or intelligence. It did not happen anything within 11 years, now it is been 35 °x ^0 years we have been living comfortably, but, this struggle and the agitation which is running now, I am very against it. I do not blame Congress for it, if I would blame then then they are the Sikhs who are blamed for it.
B. S.: So, what do you think of the Sikh agitation, which is going on now over there?
Informant: Wherever this agitation is going on it comes on the television and in the papers too.
B. S.: I am asking about Punjab?
Informant: I am telling you, I went to somebody's place yesterday, that boy like you was well educated like you, his father was §iani, I said, I am also your sikh brother, they were talking about Amritsar, about Sikhs and so on, I said, how many Gurdawaras do we have here, in B. C, and in every Gurdawara there are four different parties and you people could not sit togather with each other, how can you control the whole Punjab, answer my question. Here you cannot control you fight with each other everybody wants to be the Presidant or the Secretary or wants to hold this kind of position, there in Punjab we have Jor 4 krore people living there
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I can bet ontit Sikhs cannot rule at all. I am very much hurt too, because I am also a son of sikh and grew up and born there. But I only say that when we cannot sit togather here how can we rule over Punjab.
B. S.: So, what do you think of the demand of Khalistan?
Informant: Do not say that matter, keep it with you.
B. S.: OK, Jee. Tell me your opinion about the attack of Harmandar Sahib?
Informant: Ok, listen, as many Gurdawaras as we have they are our religious places, we go their to worship and bow our heads, there in the Gurdawara of Amritsar robbers are sitting there, we hear the news on the radio and/ also read in the paper too, they got the weapons right inside of the Gurdawara, so many other things related to the aminition were there in— side the Gurdawara. If they wanted to keep these weapons they could have kept all that in the different place, might have built a castle or any building like that in which they could kept all that stuff. Where we bow our heads, you keep these things....
You tell me your own opinion or ideas, you asked me this question and I answered it but you tell me that too.
B. S.: I am interviewing you and you tell me, we will talk about it later on and I will tell you.
Informant: But, I want to interview you too.
B. S.: I would tell you when your interview is finished, we will certainly talk about it afterwards.
Informant: OK, but I tell you that we Sikhs, you and I we are Sikhs, I am telling you that if they would not have kept all those weapons then the Congress would not have attacked, neither all those people would have died. That Tohra and other Longowalia appologized and came out and are alive. If that anaiarwla'"would have come out then this would not have happened, So, that is why I am saying that if those weapons were not inside the Gurdawara then this would not have happened, it is not called the Gurdawara where you keep these kinds of things.
B. S.: So, what do you think of the leadership of the Sikhs?
Informant: I met Longowalia in this Gurdawara here in Lake and I also met here Tohra. When 12 or more Nirankari Sikhs were killed in Amritsar, then people collected money for this purpose to help them from here. They said that we should collect money for their families and their children because they must be very tight financially. So, they collected almost two and half lakhs rupees, they said they sent that money but it was just lie, they asked the Secretary and I was there too, they said we collected money from here and from America too, did their families got something/ They told 13000 each family got it. It was totally lie and he was telling lie in front of Guru Granth Sahib. They did not give even single penny to anyone. I went there later on, the Granthi asked me that you go to Amritsar and get the information that which village those people belonged to who were killed or got killed. Take their address and reach their places may be in one or two places, I went their in Amritsar nobody gave me their names, I told him when I
page 14 came back here. So, I mean to say that there is too much over there.
B. S.: When Indira Gandhi got Killed or assasinated then majority of the sikhs got killed in Delhi, what do you think of that?
Informant: I would say that if somebody is going to kill me, I would not care for you neither for your kids nor anybody elses, I would kill as many as I could. I know that it was Indira Gandhi's fault too attacking on the gurdawara, but what she should have done when the gurdawara people were not listening to her. Like Longowalia and Tohra they both came out he would have come out like them too, so when he did not come out then they ordered the Army to attack the gurdawara.
What would you do, I am asking you this question, if somebody would attack on your house? You have the gun and you have the revolver too, if someone is going to attack on your children or wife then what would you do?
B. S.: We would do the same thing.
Informant: Yes, that is right. So, I got my answer.
B. S.: So, what do you think of Bhinderanwala?
Informant: Completely a dirty man, I cannot tell you because you wouldn't believe it. One man came from Bombay just like you are educated, he was the Captain of the ship, his mother died in India, my oldest son said to me that daddy he came to mama's Bhog and came to pay the condolence too, his mother died and let us we go to him for half an hour. We went there, I asked him tell us something about India, he said, why I said, you are the Captain of the ship,and you go back and forth so you know quite bit of it. He told me the story his wife was there my son was there, he said, uncle jee, would you believe me, I said, son whatever you would tell me I have to listen to it, whether I believe it or not. He said it is up to you believe it or not. He said, I sometimes wonder whether I should tell this or not, I feel kind of ashamed talking about it, he knows English very well and he told it in English, (he said uncle jee 16 years and 32 years women got pregnant in the gur-fdawara of Amritsar, I do not know whether it is true or not.
B. S.: I was going to ask one question but I did not, as you told me when you were working, it was ok there, but when you would go somewhere else then were there some restrictions, like you could not go to any cinema, or transportation difficulty etc......?
Informant: Yes, yes, this is quite right. Here in Duncan, these children were small at that time, we would go to the cinema-----
B. S.: Which year you are talking about?
Informant: This is 1939 and 1940, it was before that too, but then they did not let us in, they did not say you cannot go but it was just the same, they told us go and sit there where the Native Indians were sitting, they would not let us sit or give the seat where the white people used to sit.
B. S.: In the theatres or the cinemas?
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Informant: Yes, in the cinemas. And Mr. Mayo is millionaire and he left ten million dollars to his son, he went to the barbar in Duncan but the barbar said no. Then in the beer parlors where the people would go with their t turbans they would not serve us, then we hired a lawyer, there was few others were with me, one was Kabir from Mahlpur and living in Victoria, his father was my friend we told him that we want to do this thing. So, we went to the beer parlor, the bar attendar did not serve us. We came back and went to the lawyer and told him the story. He said, is that right, we said, you can come with us, so we went their and sat at the table, they put the glass in front of him and we were not served. Then he asked the bar attandar come and listen to me, he said do you know who I am, he saidn no, he told him that I am a lawyer, why did not you serve these guys? he said I am not allowed, he asked where is it written? He said, you put the sign outside, and they would not come inside. Then he talked to his boss, then the boss came and talked to the lawyer who was with us. He said, that these people make too much noise. j
B. S.: Boss said ?
Informant: Yes, boss said that. He said, white people would not make any noise? They talk little bit loud and you talk little bit low. He said, if you do not want to serve them then you put the sign outside, that we are not going to serve East Indians. They would not do that, I mean they could not put the sign like that. Then he brought the boss outside and said give them the service and do not send anyone back. This happened in front of me, so this kind of discrimination they used to do with us.
B. S.: And, same was in Victoria?
Informant: I do not know about Victoria, I am talking about Duncan.
B. S.: So, you were here?
Informant: Yes, I was here.
B. S.: Ok, then how about the theatres, when these restriction were ended?
Informant: They were ended when Nehru came here. Nehru asked if you have any-kind of trouble here then you tell me today, you would not have anykind of trouble or problem. After that all the restrictions were ended.
B. S.: Which year you are talking about?
Informant: It was in
B. S.: You got the right for vote in the same year?
Informant: No, we did not get the vote at that time, regarding voting right NDP government helped and we hired the lawyers too. Then after all this struggle they gave us the voting right. At the same time we got the citizenship too. So, these two things we got that time, otherwise our people like you, as doctors some were lawyers and one boy named Nahar Singh got number one Medal from English from the University, then he studied law in England, he knew quite many lawyers here when he was studying in Vancouver in the University, so he wrote letter from ther that I want to do my practice there
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yes, jee, then his practice was not very good in Ludhiana, stayed there one year then went to South Africa. In South Africa he worked or practiced as a Government Lawyer, after that within short period of time he was selected as a Supreme Court Judge, his name is Nahar Singh, Kubbayn Rampur Katani, I mean to say that there was quite bit discrimination, he was very educated, as many as facilities we got now, we got them after 19^?. They became kind of conscious that India got her Independence if we wouldn't give them the chance then they would not let us enter there. If you pick up the stone for that person who picks up the brick for you and threatened only then you get something otherwise nobody care for you or you would get something.
B. S.: Yes, that is right. And they used to treat the same way when you or we people would get a house on rent? People had the difficulty?
Informant: Yes, that is very true, they would not give a house on rent to us. It is still here, I am telling you. Our people are facing hard time, they want to stay togather in a group of ten in one house and spend their days or pass the time. In two bed room house, husband wife, son and daughter may be two or three that is fine but think whereas ten people , they are not allowed live like that. If somebody report to the Health Centre then they would be out immediately. So, our people want to spend less money and want to live like that. They want to spend less.
B. S.: They do it by themselves, like living like that so that they do not have to spend much?
Informant: Yes,if children would stay out, then they have to pay rent almost three or four hundred dollars a month, but in this way it would come to you in the house.
B. S.: But when you were here first, would they discriminate you if you want to have a house on rent, like you told about the theatres?
Informant: Yes, they would do the discrimination, but who needed the house / to be rented, which was empty then those people would give you the house on rent. Here I lived with one of my friends for one month and second month this place which I had now, I asked about it, they said, come, there were three rooms, this room that room and this one and I got it for seven dollars, my children were small at that time and we spent the time, after six months I added these three rooms and repaired the basement too. So, that time I built this whole house.
B. S.: Which year did you build this house?
Informant: I completed it in 1964-. In 1964 my son got married and 1 completed this whole house then after that my son got married. So, this room, I had my Bible thgre^ GuruJ^ranth SaMb.now. since that time my wife passed away I do not feel like doing any-EElftg, I have the Harmonium too, I used to play it, sing shabads, but I don't feel like doing these things now.
B. S.: When did your wife died?
Informant: She died last year in Feburary. Now, about these Khalsas I do not like to talk about them. There is one boy who is our own relative, he used to wear sometime yellow turban and sometime blue first he was clean shaved, a long beard and came in the processions and those photos,
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every news goes to New DJLhi everyday what is happening here, when he went to India he took his wife and children along with him he was put in the jail. Now he is sitting there we would ask him when he would return. Besides I do; not think they would let him come back here. There was another one whom I know same thing happened with him, I mean you have to cooperate with the government then you can pass your time, if you would stay against with the government then you are in trouble, they are doing all these things in India it is different but here they are trying to do something to these kind of people who says something against the government of India.
Suppose, you lived there 15 or 20 years you must have some kind of differences with some people, if that person would say that he is terroist he does this and that they would not let you come out but instead they would put you in the sail, and wouldn't ask another thing. These kinds of things are happening everyday over there. If strong person kill or beat the strong ones then it does not matter but the strong kille the weak ones, it is written in our Holy Bible, so when it happens then you feel sad about it when the strong beat or kill the weaks. One time I had some differences with the police, I petitioned that I should get a revolver, they asked why, I told them, that' there are Hootlum who are wandering here with their long hair, and I am his person, my house is beside the road, these people go to the show or somekind of games, at night time. If they would throw the stones or do anykind of harm or damage, I want to keep it for my own protection. They issued me a permit I paid ten dollars and bought it from Victoria, and they sent it in the mail, the policeman who gave me the permit he said, Ram Rajia your gun came and get it. When I went there to get it he took the forms out, then the Sargeant came out he asked me, why you are getting the gun, I told him that it is just for my own protection, I am an old man, he said what would you do if someone come and break your window or or your door then what would you do, I told him, don't' you know what I would do then? You are the Sargeant you know that, I am spending $3 or $4 on ±t, if someone come to my place I would shoot him right away. They rejected on that.
I got the letter from Saskatchewan Head quar-ter, they said, they would not issue a permit or should not, I told this to many, that I would not care for these damn people, I would get it illegally whether I have to spend more money on it, they would not know about it, I am keeping the gun, suppose, they arrest me somehow, they wouldn't do anything to me, just six months jail. I said, I would eat bacon and eggs and spend four months as vacations. The Canadian Government is very polite and flexible.
B. S.: There was Gurdawara here, when vou came here, I mean in the Mill there was any Gurdawara at that time, in Hill Creset?
Informant: Yes, when I came in 193^ along with my wife, then the Gurdawara was built here in Hill Creset at that time. The Company built it. I worked for two or four months, then I had differences with the foreman in Hill Creset, you know when you are single you don't care that much, but when you have a family with you then it is different. I had some trouble when I brought my family, they fired me then I came to Mayo, they had Gurdawara in Mayo too. Mayo built that Gurdawara, material and the labor, he provided everything. At Hill Creset, people asked the foreman that if you build a Gurdawara then we can worship here. So, then they built that Gurdawara.
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B. S.: If they did not have that Gurdawara there, then they had to go somewhere else of out for this purpose?
Informant: Then they would go to Victoria, or Mayo, which was three miles, from here they would go there. Now, here is one, if it was not here then they would go to May's if there was not at Mayo then they would go to Victoria to celebrate anykind of function or anything like that except worship.
B. S.: Then they had to take a day off from work?
Informant: Yes, they had to take a day off. Now, unions brought so many facilities for the workmen, like if somebody's mother, brother, sister, father or brother-in-law or any relatives like that, they would get three days off with pay. Because my father died here in 1945 I had to leave the days and then creamated him, this is because of the unions. We get 11 saturatory holidays.
B. S.: You were then in International Wood Workers?
Informant: Oh, yes in them. I was supporting union verymuch and after that / the mill people did not let get the work in the Mill, because they were J saying that he is a big helper of union. I am very much in favor of union. So, who works one year he gets two weeks holidays and the one who works two years he gets three weeks holidays. The people who has been working since four or five years they get four weeks holidays. So, this is all because of union. The Company does not want these things.
You are living in Saskatchewan, permanantly?
B. S.: Yes, I am living there.
Informant: You like Saskatchewan better than -----
B. S.: I like B. C. very much because the weather is nice here.
Informant: Oh, I see, it is very cold over there?
B. S.: Yes, it is very cold. But the thing is that, it is hard to find job anywhere else.
Informant: Mo, I think you put your application, it might come out just like a lottery, you are a intelligent person.
B. S.: We come here in the holidays, almost every year. Now, we will close the interview, I think it is quite bit, and we can talk on something else. Ok, jee, I am very thankful of your time you gave to me.
Informant: It is alright, I came yesterday, and you came here long way I couldn't give you anything on my behalf, now you tell me what would you like to drink?
B. S.: No, I do not need anything, thank you very much.
Informant: No, it cannot be like that way, I would being something for you. B. S.: No, just keep on sitting----the interview is ended around 12:45.