Description

Art Kube was born in Poland where he attended a socialist kindergarten. He joined the Metalworkers Union in 1949 and became a member of the socialist faction of the Metalworkers Union. His mother was a socialist and trade unionist who had to raise her two children alone because Art’s father was a prisoner of war in the Soviet Union. He left in 1954 to “see the world” and wound-up landing in Quebec, Canada where he became a member of the United Steelworkers union (USW). Art soon became involved in organizing workers across a wide variety of industries. He eventually became President of the BC Federation of Labour.

, Wednesday, April 5, 2016

, Interview: Art Kube (AK)
Interviewer: David Yorke (DY), Ken Novakowski (KN), Bailey Garden (BG)
Date: April 5, 2016
Location: Surrey, BC
Transcription: Bailey Garden


DY [00:00:05] So, Art, all of us are so impressed about the way that you've devoted so much of your life to the trade union movement -- and I guess what I'd like to ask you first is -- if I asked you why you did that, what would you say? How come the trade union movement is so important to you?

AK [00:00:30] Well, it really came from the background I came from. I joined the Metalworkers Union in 1949 and became a member of the Metalworkers Union, and also became part of the socialist faction of the Metalworkers. My mother was a member of a trade union and a long-time member of the party. As a matter of fact, you know, she had to bring the two of us up because my father was a prisoner of war in the Soviet Union. So, she sort of brought us along and we were nine, ten years old. So, we belonged to the socialist kindergarten because, you know, (unclear). In the mornings, the school and the afternoon was at kindergarten. From there we went to -- when I was old enough -- became a member of the Young Falcons, was the executive of the youth section of the Metalworkers Union. Then in 1954, I decided to leave Europe -- because I had finished an apprenticeship -- and go see the world. I ended up in Quebec City, and it's really funny because in Quebec City, the first trade union action in Canada occurred because if you recall, that was the year when the Canadian Pacific Steamship changed to a flag of convenience to Bermuda, and they wanted to cut the wages of the seamen. I was working on the ship at that time, and so I decided to get off, and somebody told me, 'Why don't you go to the immigration office here and see if you can get an immigrant status?' So, I went over there, and it was very interesting. They asked me where I was born. I say, 'I was born in Poland.' I was, and he says, 'Well, you're lucky the Polish quota hasn't been filled.' So, within a matter of two and a half hours I became a landed immigrant, where it took some people years. So, it's just sheer luck. I went on - got on the train, because I knew some people who lived in Edmonton. I remember, I had I think about $45 and when I landed in Edmonton three days later, I think I had all of $0.50. What they did -- because I had landed immigrant status - they took us into the immigration hall there and fed us a breakfast. The contractors came and wanted to see if anyone wanted to work, and I had a trade, so I got working. I worked for a week and got myself a place to stay, and then I connected with some people who spoke good English -- because my English was atrocious. I mean, I could order a coffee and a doughnut, that's about the end of it. They gave me some information, and I wanted the information of where the Steelworkers Union office was. Sure enough, it was on Jasper Avenue. So, I went in there and knocked on the door. Went in and there's a secretary there and I said, 'Sprechen sie Deutsch?' she says, 'No.' There was a guy in there by the name of Mike Sikora and he was a Ukrainian, but he spoke some German. So, I started explaining who I was, that I was an immigrant and I was a member of the Metalworkers Union in Europe, and they told me that if I come to Canada one of the unions I might want to contact is the Steelworkers AFL-CIO (American Federation of Labour - Congress of Industrial Organizations), and in that category, we are really good with only two unions. That's the Steelworkers and the Auto Workers, because that was before the merger of the Congresses. So, anyhow, Steelworker rep came in and between Mike Sikora, me and him, we sort of got -- the first thing they said, 'Look, we only have about 50 members.' The Steelworkers only had 50 members, but the IWA (International Woodworkers of America) was organizing then already about 1200. The IWA and the Steelworkers were very close, they worked very closely together. After about, oh, two months -- I was working in the meantime in sweatshop where I don't know, I think it was $0.75 an hour.

DY [00:06:42] Doing what, Art?

AK [00:06:44] Well, I'm a steelworker. Well, steel fabricator really.

DY [00:06:52] What was your trade that you learnt in Austria?

AK [00:06:55] Yeah it was a Structural Layout Man. The job where you get the blueprints from the government, from the engineering office, you order the materials, you bring the materials in. You mark the materials, and then it gets punched and cut. Eventually, I sort of put a number on it and then it goes out on the jobsite and gets erected.

DY [00:07:25] So, it was like draughting on the steel --

AK [00:07:29] No, the draughting, the draughtsman is really -- after the engineer does the overall print, the draughtsman just does the detailing. After the detailing, these prints come to me because they had to be exact. So, anyhow, after working in that place and so on and so forth, I kept in touch with a steelworker, he invited me. There were some other people around -- CCF-ers (Co-operative Commonwealth Federation) -- and he said to me, 'Look, what I would suggest is I can get -- I know some people -- I can get you a job up north on the dew line', he says, 'That will do a number of things for you. In the first place, you're going to be forced to learn the language.' Because here in Edmonton, I mean, French is not the second language. It's either Ukrainian, German or Polish. He says 'You're going to be forced to learn language. The other thing is you can establish an economic base for yourself because there's nothing else to do and you get about a dollar forty an hour.' Which was big money then. So, I did that, but when I came down from the dew line every four or five months, I stayed with Jimmy Russell.

DY [00:09:12] Jimmy Russell. He was a Steelworker business agent?

AK [00:09:29] No, he was a rep. So, he says, 'Listen, would you mind helping us?' I said, 'Well, sure, what can I do?' He said, 'Look, I got here about half a dozen of German people. Would you mind going with one of our reps because you can speak German to them and so and so forth?' So, I found it very interesting and sure enough, they succeeded in getting the Dominion Bridge in Edmonton, the Dominion Bridge in Calgary. As a matter of fact, in a period of two years, they organized close to 2000 steelworkers in Alberta. I was really just -- the only time I was sort of active when I got into town from the dew line. So, I got into this social circle. As a matter of fact, I think if you look at my first CCF card about 1956 or so. At the time, when somebody joined the CCF -- especially a young person like me -- they grab you and Merv -- Lloyd Johnson -- Floyd? Floyd was the president. Bill Irvine was around the office at Woodwards House on 100 -- was it 97?

KN [00:11:12] No, it was 107th off of Jasper Avenue. Yeah.

AK [00:11:16] Yeah, yeah. So, organizing, but then also, we did a number of things from the Cooperative executive and as a matter of fact, I financed it because the Steel-- nobody had any money. I think I had about $4000 in the bank. I was the rich capitalist in there.

DY [00:11:46] So, you got into organizing for the Steelworkers really quickly.

AK [00:11:53] Yeah.

DY [00:11:56] Maybe I'll go back to what I was asking you before and use that as an example. If you go to somebody and there in Alberta in 1954, 1955, and they're working at Dominion Bridge.

AK [00:12:12] Yeah.

DY [00:12:13] What is it that you say to them that convinces them to join a union? Why should you join a union?

AK [00:12:18] Well, I basically said, 'Look, if they came from Europe, especially in the area of the steel fabrication and so and so forth, they've most likely had some connection with the union. Okay. Especially when they were German. So, the only thing you had to convince them of was that the Steelworkers are much stronger in terms of organization, in terms of helping people and so and so forth instead of negotiating rates than Mine-Mill. Okay. That was the selling point. I know that they were accused of red baiting and all that stuff. I didn't red bait, but at the same time, I pointed out certain things. You see, when you're brought it up in a household which is basically a socialist household, when you're in Western Europe and you sort of see the danger that the Communist Party was to trade unions and to social democratic parties. I tell you, for instance, in 1954, just before over two and a half months before I left, I participated in a general strike. One day general strike, because the two occupation forces, namely the Soviet Union and the United States, wanted to outlaw the Socialist Party in Austria. Yeah, and they had a one-day strike, and the Brits and the French. That was the first instance, and I mean, I was getting --

DY [00:14:39] Why do you think what basis or what reason did the Soviets and the Americans have to make a common cause against the Socialist Party? Why were they doing that, do you think?

AK [00:14:54] At that particular time, I really couldn't tell you what the real reason. I think they were (unclear) especially with the Americans. It was stupidity because their move in Japan gave a totally different picture. I was brought up in a political situation, like, for instance -- I know, for instance, that in Czechoslovakia, Masaryk didn't jump off the balcony. So, yeah, there was a real difference, and it was really through some real maneuvering that Austria was able to negotiate itself into a peace treaty and get all occupation forces out of Austria. Living in Vienna, when you're going from the kindergarten and the youth organization into the membership and the mother is there. The father is a prisoner of war until 1957. You build up a certain what you might call resistance to -- if you really knew something, you knew yourself that the common term was not -- not a free elected organization of equals. It was basically dictated by the Soviet Union and their foreign policy. So, it's sometimes it's very hard to understand, but I was able. I could hold my own with Harvey Murphy, Bill Longridge and some of these people, but I never went there and said, 'Well, the reason you should join the Steelworkers Union is because these guys are all communists, which is a bunch of nonsense, because I knew some of these. Jimmy Russell, who really I thought the world of, was a Vice-President of Local 240 of Mine-Mill in Kirkland Lake, and also worked for the CCF. I knew that there were a lot of good people in Mine-Mill, right to the bitter end. The thing was happening, there's no question that what was happening in the United States did have some influence in Canada in regards to the behaviour. The Steelworkers Union was an international union, but let me tell you that we were very jealously guarding our Canadian autonomy. When the international president came up to one of our conventions and suggested that their political action maybe was better than ours, he was very politely told to keep his politics south of the border. I almost went (unclear) point. Later on in my life, when I ran against the administration at the CLC (Canadian Labour Congress) and got hammered, the CLC had to fill the position here as Regional Director of Education. Let me tell you that particular choice was very largely not made by Donald MacDonald, it was made by the executive committee of the Congress. They said, 'Look, we need somebody in there who can do a number of things.' Re-establish the political party presence -- because if you know the internal politics of Ontario's CCF. Mine-Mill had a sort of non-partisan political action and what it was doing was electing all kinds of Liberals in seats which we should be holding, like Windsor and so forth. So, it was the question of seeing if we can establish some political action. Like for instance, affiliating the large Inco local which had 18,000 members, and within -- me getting appointed to staff -- in the year we had two federal MPs (Member of Parliament) and we had two provincial MLAS (Member of the Legislative Assembly). So, that was one of the responsibilities I had.

DY [00:20:44] So, Art, going back to just starting off working with the Steelworkers in Alberta. Was the organizing work that you were doing -- was it mostly in plants where there wasn't any union or was it mostly in plants where Mine-Mill was there?

AK [00:21:10] Well, Mine-Mill didn't have any plants. They had Dominion Bridge, which were two plants. One in Calgary, one in Edmonton. Okay, that was - but what was important to them in Edmonton was the staging area to go into the mines in northern Saskatchewan and the Northwest Territories because hiring was done in Edmonton. So, Mine-Mill wanted to organize and Steelworkers wanted to organize. So, you know, Thompson came on a little bit later. I spent a year and a half in Thompson preparing to get all kinds of Steelworkers on the properties, but the only way you could get on a property, for instance, was to get hired by the contractor because the company didn't have anyone on their staff. The only people on their staff was the future mine manager and they had the engineering staff, but they didn't have any workers and such. I mean, one of the great things, you always try to sort of look at the qualities of this union or that union, and there was always this sort of feeling that you don't go through the back door into a collective agreement. However, at Inco in Thompson, Manitoba, that's exactly what happened. Mine-Mill made a deal with the company, and you had to go, had to show they were a member of Mine-Mill. Kennedy -- I'm trying to think of Kennedy's first name, he was Vice-President at Mine-Mill. He was operating the beer parlour where the miners used to congregate and he says, 'Well fellas, who would like to work in Thompson? Well, have you ever belonged to a union?' and so forth, and most of them said, 'Yeah.' 'Well, here, I can get you in.' and that's how Mine-Mill got established in Thompson. I'm not saying that that didn't happen in some situation where the Steelworkers might be involved, because, for instance, if there's a company where Steelworkers had maybe a national agreement like they have, for instance, had with Continental Can, well, they had an agreement which basically said that anytime a new Can plant -- Continental Can builds a new plant, so and so forth -- the Steel -- we'll give the Steelworkers voluntary recognition; but these agreements were top-notch agreements.

DY [00:24:42] Well, Art, can I ask you this. There was a fair amount of what you did that I -- from what you're saying, and I guess from what we knew before -- that where, what Steel is doing is, they're in a struggle with Mine-Mill for a whole bunch of different reasons. I'm just trying to get a picture of what it was like in situations where that wasn't the case, where there was a group of workers who didn't have any union at all, and you were trying to organize them into the union. It wouldn't be a question of which union was best or the politics of it, and so on. It's why you should be in a union. So, I was just trying to see if you can recall the kinds of approaches and arguments you would use to tell people, 'Hey, a union is a good thing, you should be there.'

AK [00:25:43] Yeah, well, look, unless you never came off the farm, you did hear in one form or another something about the union. So, when you go in there and start talking to somebody, quite often I'd say, 'Look at the number of things the union can do for you. It can do some job protection for you.' That's one thing, and the other thing I'd say, 'I don't know how much money you make, but here we have collective agreements in that industry, and here's the pay rates and here's the collective agreements. I'm not telling you something which isn't true, but here's some proof.' The thing you had to overcome is not so much the anti-, the opposition to the union, but the fear factor. The fear factor was really the thing, and it came in two forms. Quite often, management said, 'Well, folks, you know we're good to you. We give you everything we can, but we can't give you any more because we can't stay in business.' That was the sort of soft thing, and the hard thing was that they always had a few stooges there to set you up and get you fired. I got fired seven times.

DY [00:27:14] How many times?

AK [00:27:15] Seven times. Yeah, but I got reinstated five times. The other two times, I didn't really care. So, you've got the fear factor to overcome. Now, they did -- Jimmy Russell, to his credit, was a person who really genuinely worked with the other unions. He worked with the labourers, the ironworkers, he socialized with them and everything else, and it was an understanding he had with them. Not -- it wasn't an understanding which was universal in the trade union movement, it's something Jimmy Russell was able to do. What he basically said, 'Look, I'm going to wherever possible, I'm going to make sure that new construction in established steel certificate goes to the Building Trades.' Okay, and even if that's absolutely impossible to do that, he worked out a deal for the dues. The Steelworkers collected from the Building Trades members working in their jurisdiction went to the Building Trade Union. Okay, so in return for it -- because usually after construction was sort of towards the end, the companies start to hire these people and they were either members of the Labourers Union or the Ironworkers, whatever, or Sheet Metal Workers. They were able to get in there through the help of the union and that made it much easier. Yeah, and in Alberta, but then in other cases where a company came in and was non-union, was maybe very much opposed to the union. Then you have to sort of work -- working on some other things and provide some sort of assurances that if you get fired for union activities, there are certain things we can do to get you reinstated. If that fails, they'll try to get you a job with some of the organized plants, and generally speaking, companies used to be quite good about hiring people who are fired by a non-union company. You know, the unions suggested because generally it was found that they didn't like the unfair competition of having to compete against a non-union company. So, these are sort of assuring them that they're not going to get fired, and if they do, there's going to be some sort of assistance and it has worked, but there again, if you find people who don't have any sort of collective vision of things, then it might be very tough to organize, and I think that to a certain extent Alberta was the case. Saskatchewan was very bad. You know, we had very good labour legislation in Saskatchewan, but it was fairly tough to organize, you know, I mean I don't know how many rounds we took at the -- what's in Esterhazy?

DY [00:31:36] Potash.

AK [00:31:37] Potash. Yeah. I mean, the Steelworkers Union spent a million dollars trying to organize.

DY [00:31:46] Well, when you said a collective vision, what do you mean by that?

AK [00:31:51] Well, look. If you look at the, what you might call the raison d'être, you can say, 'Look, what sort of chance to you have to deal with your boss on an even basis? But if a few people get together, the boss has to at least listen to you, and under the law, he has to bargain. If the union is certified, under the law he has to bargain collectively.' We didn't tell them that we're going to have you out on strike. Yeah, you had to sort of play that fairly cool until they recognized when they sit on the bargaining table that the boss is an S.O.B. So it's these sort of things which you have to sort of win the mind of the people you're are trying to organize. A lot of personal contacts, spend a lot of time. Sometimes you may call five or six call-backs and I'll tell you it's much tougher, for instance, to raid a place than organize a new place, because Mine-Mill was no slouch.

DY [00:33:40] Well, maybe I could ask you about a couple of people on both sides of that.

AK [00:33:44] Yeah.

DY [00:33:47] Maybe start with the Steelworkers. Did you work with Mahoney? With Bill Mahoney?

DY [00:33:56] I did work with Bill Mahoney, but Bill Mahoney was not what you might call the most pleasant fellow.

DY [00:34:05] Okay, tell us a bit about Bill Mahoney, because he's a bit of a mystery in this.

AK [00:34:08] Well Bill Mahoney, I think was always a liberal. He came out of Sault Ste. Marie, and a very devout Catholic. I think that if anything drove him into the Steelworkers Union, it was more that Catholic action than anything else. His base was Sault Ste. Marie, Algoma Steel, and somehow he that Algoma Steel was going to be the key organization in Steel forever but found out that there were other places coming in like Inco, like Stelco was growing very fast and that he wasn't all he turned out to be. So, when Charlie Mallard left, there were two.

DY [00:35:26] Tell us who Charlie Millard was.

AK [00:35:30] Well, Charlie Millard, the National Director of Steel. Actually, he was the CIO Director for Canada and by virtue of that, he was also Director of the UAW (United Auto Workers) in Canada. Charlie was a very strong CCF-er. The fight within the trade union movement between -- there were actually three groups, four groups which were engaged in getting the hearts and minds of working people. There was the Steelworkers, and the CIO-CCL (Canadian Congress of Labour). The other group was a Catholic syndicate, mostly strong in Quebec, but also some in Ontario. Then you had this sort of company union thing. The company union was pretty strong in Ontario.

DY [00:37:03] Was it?

AK [00:37:04] Yeah, as a matter of fact, to this day they are. They still are because, you see, what got the shot in the arm for them was the Dutch Reformed group.

DY [00:37:22] Yeah.

AK [00:37:23] See, I forgot their name.

DY [00:37:24] CLAC (Christian Labour Association of Canada).

AK [00:37:25] CLAC. The CLAC-ers. So, that was three, and then there was also a small group of what you might call CP-dominated (Communist Party) organizations. That was Mine-Mill, it was the UE (United Electrical Workers Union), it was fish (United Fish and Allied Workers Union).

DY [00:37:55] That's all on the industrial side, and then there's the Trades and Labour Congress as well.
,
AK [00:38:01] Yeah. Oh yeah, I'm sorry, I forgot about the Trades and Labour Congress. No question a very large group, but in the Trades and Labour Congress, the question was -- there was some pretty good groups in there. There were some not so good groups in the CIO either, you know, a couple. It was -- we would always tell these glorious stories about the needle trades. Well, I tell you, needle trades used to have some shitty contracts too. So, you had these different groups and there was always a desire for everyone to get together, but you can't get together with organizations who sign yellow-dog agreements and destroy every trade union principle there is. It would be not too much of a problem with the TLC, except that there was an understanding that if you merge, there might be sort of a mass exodus. So, what you had to do, you had to give all kinds of assurances that raiding, you can be expelled for raiding. That really came in to protect the TLC membership.

DY [00:39:46] The Trades and Labour Congress.

AK [00:39:48] Yeah.

DY [00:39:49] You were telling us about Charlie Millard. He was --

AK [00:39:52] Yeah, okay. So, anyhow, when Charlie stepped down, he was sent into the Senate. Not the Upper Chamber, but we had the ICFTU (International Confederation of Free Trade Unions) and then we had also the ILO (International Labour Organization), the tripartite thing, and a good number of trade unionists who were on the tail end of their career, they ended up maybe in Geneva or, you know, then -- (phone rings) -- ILO ended up with ICFTU in Brussels.

DY [00:40:45] That's the International Confederation of--

AK [00:40:47] Free Trade Unions.

DY [00:40:47] Free Trade Unions, yeah.

AK [00:40:50] So, Charlie ended up as Director of Organization. You had then the vacancy in the national office and here you had these two aspirants: Mahoney, the wheel in Algoma Steel, and Larry Sefton, the wheel in Stelco, because he led the Stelco strike, which was the thing everyone in the labour movement sang about. So, Charlie said, as his last act, said 'Look.' Mitchell, who was the director of District Six, was ready to retire and was just about six months to go. So, Charlie went to Pittsburgh and said, 'Look, can we work something out for Charlie to retire six months early and you keep him on the staff, because I don't want to have the fight in Canada and I got these two guys who do carry a lot of weight. Let's see, because Larry is not going to step aside for Mahoney just to -- but if we give them assurance that he's going to be supported strongly if he runs for the Directorship of District Six. He won't run for the National Directors job.' Now, that sort of showed me that Bill Mahoney didn't really understand the Steelworkers Union, because the power is not in the national office. It's in the district office. Anyhow, the end result was that Bill Mahoney ended up as the National Director, Larry Sefton ended up as District Director; but if you wanted to get something done, you went to Larry, because Larry had by far the largest district. It ran from the Quebec border, Ontario/Quebec border, right to the West Coast. The thing Mahoney could do to sort of maintain his power is basically be a strong supporter, all at once, a strong supporter of you know who, the NDP (New Democratic Party). Larry always was a strong supporter of the NDP. You know, he had Doc Ames. I don't know if you remember Doc Ames, he was a Steelworker organizer, but he spent most of his time organizing the CCF and the NDP in northern Ontario. So, we held all these seats up there. Larry was very successful in organizing. He had won the Stelco strike, and he also helped the small district in Quebec. Larry put a lot of money from District Six into Quebec. Like Murdochville.

DY [00:44:34] Murdochville. I was going to ask you, were you involved in the Murdochville strike?

AK [00:44:38] No, I wasn't involved, it was District Three, yeah. So, everything went along fine until, well, what's happening is that the industry changed and Larry got sick. Larry got sick, he got cancer and died, and Lynn was saying -- and there was --

AK [00:45:10] This is Lynn Williams.

AK [00:45:12] Lynn Williams, and there again, you see, the Steelworkers Union under Charlie Millard, under Mitchell, who was the director of District Six in Ontario before Larry Stephan. Then Larry Sefton, Jimmy Russell, the whole Steel staff came into the union as a struggle. The only one who didn't, the only two who didn't, got there by virtue of knowing somebody was Stu Cook. I don't know if you -- Stu Cook was for a short time District Director of District Six -- and the other one was Don Montgomery. Don Montgomery's father brought in the workers into the Steelworkers Union in Sault Ste. Marie, because they belonged previously to a union that was called -- don't know (unclear) they were sort of aluminum metal union and then became part of the Steelworkers Union. Yeah, and so basically when it came to doing some progressive work, be it in terms of Canada or be it internationally, the Steelworkers were par excellence. No question. You know, anyone who tells you that they weren't is not telling the truth. They were because they also brought on some like Len Williams. Len Williams, then you most likely remember Wally Ross. Eileen Sufrin, you know, and there were many others. Also, in terms of the MPs, a number of MPs -- federal MPs -- came to these groupings. The Assistant National Director, Eamon Park, he sort of was key person in setting up the New Democratic Party, and when it came to assisting the party, they were there. That -- to a certain extent -- some people say, 'Well, the only reason they did that because it maintained their status as a progressive organization.' and I say, 'Well, the bloody thing is that if a union gets itself into trouble and so on and so forth, who in the community will help them? A progressive church minister or a local anarchist, or...

DY [00:48:37] So, Art, you worked on staff for the Steelworkers in the fifties and sixties.

AK [00:48:43] I worked on staff at the Steelworkers Union for a period of five weeks.

DY [00:48:49] Oh really?

AK [00:48:50] Five weeks. I never left, for instance, getting jobs in mines, plants and so on and so forth. I was getting a paycheque. It was just way in the later stages that I got married, so I didn't have expenses, and it gave me a tremendous amount of personal satisfaction. I was very successful because if you're ever beholden to somebody for your job, you limit your ability. (unclear)

DY [00:49:41] So, then how is it that you can become on the staff of the CLC?

AK [00:49:48] Well, that came because the Steelworkers union needed to do a pacification job in Sudbury. Okay, and I had just been fired in Thompson because somebody squealed on me. When they fired me, the Mine-Mill inside plant said, 'Hey, if you fire me, you might as well fire the Steelworker inside organizer too.' It was actually a guy who used to live, used to work for Rock and Tunnel here. Will come to me in a little while. So, anyhow --

DY [00:50:43] McPhee?

AK [00:50:45] No, no, McPhee was the business agent.

DY [00:50:52] Anyways.

AK [00:50:58] You see, I'm pretty obvious, if I juggle too many balls at the same time. You asked me why.

DY [00:51:06] How did you get on the CLC?

AK [00:51:08] Okay, that leads me to say the reason I got on the CLC staff is because they needed some pacification work down here.

DY [00:51:17] What do you mean by that?

AK [00:51:23] Mine-Mill not only had Ancor and Falconbridge, they had a good number of other workers places organized.

DY [00:51:30] In Sudbury.

AK [00:51:31] In Sudbury. So, there was no question about if the jurisdiction would be awarded to Steel as far as Inco was concerned, but all the other places -- and there were about 30 thousand -- the Teamsters wanted a bite, Retail Wholesale wanted a bite, Retail Clerks wanted a bite, the Meatcutters wanted a bite. The first thing you would have is all these unions, CLC unions, fighting each other, and what's going to happen? I mean, that's not a good introduction to the people in terms of favouring Steel. So, the executive council said, 'Look, we'll ask all the affiliates to stay out of Sudbury and the CLC will organize these places. Once they're organized, once the situation settles down, all the unions who have jurisdiction in these particular areas will be asked to come in and take a vote and see where the people want to go. So, I had to organize. These things were easy to organize, because Mine-Mill really --

DY [00:52:59] It was on its way out.

AK [00:53:00] Well, the thing is that you had -- the food industry was a fairly well-paid industry and Mine-Mill just didn't know how to deal with hard-rock miners, you know.

DY [00:53:23] So, what was your sort of official job in in Sudbury?

AK [00:53:28] My job was a representative of the Canadian Labour Congress. So, I had to organize these places, I had to negotiate collective agreements. I had to do the political end and look after labour councils because indirectly, I looked after nine labour councils in northwestern Ontario. So, that was -- when I heard sometimes of some of the Congress reps bitching about having to work hard. I said, 'How would you like to have my territories?'

DY [00:54:11] So, just in terms of time, this is what about 1966, '67?

AK [00:54:17] Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

DY [00:54:21] Okay, and then what did you do when you finished in Sudbury?

AK [00:54:26] Well, the thing is that -- Look, I'm not gonna brag, but I'm a pretty good organizer.

DY [00:54:33] I gather, eh?

AK [00:54:35] So, that was, I mean, everybody had to laugh. I organized for the Congress a number of places and so and so forth, and the Congress had a position called White-Collar Coordinator and get in charge of it. You know who that job before me? Terry Morely.

KN [00:55:10] Oh, really?

AK [00:55:12] But anyhow, it's --

DY [00:55:13] He was more white-collar than you are.

AK [00:55:16] The thing is that all my friends, like Wally Ross, sometimes he drove me crazy because, 'Kube, they're making you the national White-Collar Coordinator? Jesus, you're going to go to wear your rubber boots and your muckers'.

DY [00:55:45] So, what did that involve? Being the White-Collar Coordinator.

AK [00:55:49] Organize all 5 million white-collar workers.

DY [00:55:56] Okay, this is now the CLC.

AK [00:55:57] Yeah.

DY [00:55:58] So, the white-collar unions are what, the OPEIU (Office and Professional Employees International Union)?

AK [00:56:03] The OPEIU, and they are actually the only union who has -- they claim -- jurisdiction in that area. My position was always that he who holds the cards holds the jurisdiction. You know what that means?

DY [00:56:31] Yeah, well that seems to be the law in Canada actually. Yeah, but --.

AK [00:56:35] The thing is you had -- talking about things being counterproductive in a way -- the OPEIU members, a large part of their membership are people working in union offices. You might have experienced that in the Teachers Federation too; because you're working for a union, you're supposed to get a model contract plus. So, you know who all the union people who work for unions and who are officers in their unions, you know who they hate more than the boss? The OPEIU rep.

DY [00:57:33] So, did you work with organizing where they ended up in OPEIU, or another affiliate?

AK [00:57:41] No, look, we did two things. First, the first thing we did, I sort of basically sit down and say, 'What are the options here?' I was never imbued with my great quality of being able to organize for 5 million white-collar workers, but I knew that I could get a lot of help from public sector unions for white-collar organization because they have to negotiate on the basis of comparability with the private sector. Okay, and how could I improve their lot? Somehow, if you could convince the industries to start paying more, that would go a long way towards that. So, I said, 'Well, how could I do it?' Well, I started to publicize. You saw all at once in the subway and street cars in Toronto, 'Len, can we count you in?' ACTE, Association of Commercial and Technical Employees. Then we hold a press conference and make sure that there were some reporters there. Now, they didn't represent the media. There were, well, (unclear) came, some of the union publications came, but there was a press conference and here we had these great plans and how many millions of organizes we're going to do and so forth. We said one of the priorities will be the insurance industry because they're the worst thing and we're going to be setting up an office in London, Ontario. Well, jeez, the Hamilton Spectator and the London Free Press came. We had an office set up Bloor Street in Toronto. Well, we're getting all kinds of calls and so and so forth, and the idea is to sort of go through a thought process and so and so forth. Well, you know what happens? London Life, under the chairmanship of -- was it Colonel Jeffries, the head of London Life? Yeah. They gave a 22% wage increase across the board to all the people. Well, if London Life does it, the others followed suit. Now all of the ones we didn't get any -- before, we used to get letters, not signed. This time we didn't even get unsigned letters. About a year later or so, we get some unsigned letters that say, 'Listen, we thought we would get another a wage increase. Could you guys sort of come around?' And John Edwards really was able to show to the executive council that that increase the industry got was very, very helpful to them, especially in the C.R. job descriptions, which were the low clerk clerical jobs. The other thing we did is we stimulated white-collar organization in office and technical areas where the union had the plant organized, and we were able to organize. Go in there and organize (unclear). The Steelworkers, the Auto Workers and some of the other unions who never did anything moved into that area. So, all together there was a fairly good increase in union organization and that was done because I was able to convince the Executive Council of the Congress to give us a nickel, and that was the organizing fund.

DY [01:02:51] Per capita funding.

AK [01:02:52] Yeah, a per capita fund. Now, I wasn't too popular with the OPEIU, you know.

DY [01:03:04] Because it wasn't really increasing their membership, eh?

AK [01:03:09] Well look, I said to them, I said, 'Look, what can I do to help you?' 'Well, could you organize them into it?' I said, 'Look. Do, you think we're going to have some success in there? Because that nickel brought in, I think about $700,000 a year. I'm prepared to recommend to the Congress some assistance to you.' They had -- Montreal, the OPEIU's been very good in Montreal, because they got Laurentian Bank and the Local 500 has about 6000 members. So, we gave them some assistance there, but they weren't just going anywhere. CUPE (Canadian Union of Public Employees) picked up lot of members because the office and technical units in municipalities were sometimes larger than the the maintenance group. Except that Donald MacDonald and I really crossed swords, because he never liked me because I came from the Steelworkers Union.

DY [01:04:40] Where was Donald MacDonald from?

AK [01:04:41] Huh?

DY [01:04:43] Which union did Donald MacDonald come from?

AK [01:04:46] I think he was a bookkeeper for a co-op down in Cape Breton, but you know who he defeated for the Secretary-Treasurer job? Bill Mahoney.

DY [01:05:04] I'm trying to remember what union Donald MacDonald came from.

AK [01:05:07] Well, he claimed he was a coal miner.

DY [01:05:12] Oh, so he was a United Mine Workers person.

AK [01:05:14] Yeah, except that they weren't in the Congress, so he became a member of the Vancouver Local of the IWA.

DY [01:05:26] Well, that's something that people outside the trade union movement sometimes wonder about, is all this business about credentials and being delegates from strange unions that they've never had anything to do with. What do you think about that practice?

AK [01:05:45] What I think about that practice? Well, it happens in the best of organizations.

DY [01:05:55] Well I can think of one organization that doesn't happen in.

AK [01:05:58] Tell me.

DY [01:05:59] BCTF (BC Teachers Federation).

AK [01:06:00] Yeah?

DY [01:06:01] Yeah, you never get to do that.

KN [01:06:02] Never.

DY [01:06:03] Never. BCTF people, they see the people trading credentials and delegates positions, they just can't believe it.

AK [01:06:16] Look.

DY [01:06:19] Anyways, it's an interesting cultural thing, all right.

AK [01:06:22] Yeah, but coming back to Mahoney and MacDonald, when they -- the CCL didn't have a full-time president, they had a full-time Secretary-Treasurer and the full-time Secretary-Treasurer for a long time the United Mine Worker.

DY [01:06:57] Conroy.

AK [01:06:58] Pat Conroy and -- (phone rings) that's okay -- Pat Conroy got himself into a real mess because he said people on the executive council of the CLC-CCL had to be Canadians. Jeez, turns out you find out that a good number that's on the executive council of the CCL were either Americans or didn't pick up any membership. Well, we had the case here. Pat...

DY [01:07:53] O'Neill.

AK [01:07:54] O'Neill, Pat O'Neill. So, Conroy, he said it was a good position. He took the position, 'No, they have to be a Canadian. Canadians, so and so.' The convention didn't didn't support him, and so he left. So, then they were looking around for a Secretary-Treasurer, and the only one they could find was the former leader of the CCF of Nova Scotia who, when he got defeated, this leader then got a job through the Co-operative Union of Canada as the manager of a co-op store in Cape Breton.

DY [01:09:01] Suddenly rises to become the President of the CLC.

AK [01:09:05] And was opposed to the nickel increase.

DY [01:09:11] So, after the nickel increase in organizing in the white-collar, what did you do then?

AK [01:09:18] I committed political suicide.

DY [01:09:20] Okay. Tell us about that.

AK [01:09:22] I ran for the position of Secretary-Treasurer of the CLC.

DY [01:09:26] Against who?

AK [01:09:29] Against, well, the official candidate was from Alberta, the Chemical and Atomic Workers, Neil Reimer.

KN [01:09:39] Neil Reimer, yeah.

AK [01:09:40] Yeah, and the other sort of right-wing candidate was Donald MacDonald, and then poor me. I got defeated, so, big deal.

DY [01:10:00] So, tell me. This is something that I don't quite understand, is how people on staff end up running for elected political positions, because you were on staff, weren't you?

AK [01:10:16] Oh, yeah, I was on staff, but I paid my union dues, and I tell you, look. I never considered my work with the labour movement as a job. Okay, I did work an eight-hour day or a 40-hour work week. I worked pretty much all the jobs that had to be done, and I felt I should have the privilege of having some say in regards to the policy, because I'm the guy who has to support that policy, to try to implement that policy and sometimes pay a heavy price for doing it. To me, it was a small portion because I -- if I wouldn't have paid dues, if I wasn't being a member of that local union and that local union wouldn't have elected me to go, that would be one thing; but if I meet all these qualifications then I should have that right and privilege to be a delegate. I made always sure that I took time off during that period of time. I think to a great extent that was not a bad policy, because in the Steelworkers union, you had to sort of earn your stripes first and then the director will put you on because he's interested to make sure that he has good staff. Now, sometimes the thing that gets a little bit abused, if you have a leadership which is scared of their own job or something like that, they hired their cronies. On the whole, I sort of think that 'til about ten, fifteen years ago, generally speaking the staff -- the people who were picked for staff were good people.

DY [01:12:31] Did you go back to the staff after the election?

AK [01:12:33] Well, that was new grounds. I drove back to Ottawa and there's a phone call for me to call Joe Morris as soon as I get back. I said, 'Well,' so I said, 'Okay.' So, I told Mary what I was doing and I said, 'By the way, get my pack sack ready.' Because one of the things I always used to tell people -- I got myself into trouble quite often. My position was never, don't ask any questions. Do it, then let things happen.

DY [01:13:24] It's easier to get forgiveness than permission.

AK [01:13:27] Yeah. So, anyhow, Mary says, 'Oh, jeez, I guess we're going to eat a lot of hamburger.' I said, 'No, it's okay. I've always made more money working in the mines than working with Congress anyway.' So, I went down and went up to the fifth floor and the secretary sees me. 'Oh Art, Art, Joe really wants to see you, he said.'

DY [01:13:57] Joe's president of --.

AK [01:13:58] The new president.

DY [01:13:59] New president of the CLC.

AK [01:14:01] Yeah.

AK [01:14:01] Yeah, so, I go in there and the secretary opens the door for me. He looks at me and says, 'Hi! Well, jeez, I am glad you're back. We need you.' I said, 'Oh, you need me?' I say, 'Sure you don't have a pink slip for me?' He says, 'No, no. Well,' he says, 'to tell you the truth, you're a little bit of an embarrassment to be here in Ottawa.' He says, 'A couple characters like Montgomery, the Secretary-Treasurer, think you should be fired.' He says, 'The biggest mistake that Charlie Millard ever did was put Don Montgomery on staff.' So, he says, 'Art, look. There's two vacancies for directors, regional directors. One is Newfoundland, the Atlantic provinces, and the other one is B.C..' and he says, 'We're not going to waste you in Newfoundland. I want you to go to B.C..' And he says, 'And there's one specific thing I want you to do. I want you to make sure that the BC Fed (BC Federation of Labour), when they pass a resolution of their convention, doesn't kick the shit out of the Congress and then come down here and tell us, do whatever you do, but don't let Fish back into the Federation.' Because they have a fifth of all their delegates. I said, 'Well, see what I can do.' So, I came out here and I sort of thought that the way to get the Congress presence felt is through education, labour education.

KN [01:16:18] What year was that?

AK [01:16:22] That's a good question.

KN [01:16:24] Roughly.

AK [01:16:25] That was, I tell you...

DY [01:16:28] It's about '70, isn't it?

AK [01:16:30] Yeah, it was in the seventies. Yeah. Yeah, because the thing was that Len Guy was Secretary-Treasurer, George Johnson was president.

KN [01:16:40] Mid-Seventies. After Ray.

AK [01:16:49] Yeah, and...

DY [01:16:55] So, let's see if I can get this right. Joe is going to send you out to BC. You're going to be the BC director of --
,

AK [01:17:04] The CLC.

DY [01:17:05] The CLC, and he wants two things. He wants to stop this hot-head resolutions coming from BC telling the CLC that it's not doing enough, and he doesn't want the Fish back in.

AK [01:17:23] No, no, no, no. The, sort of -- what Joe was angry about is that Ray Haynes and others used to come, George Johnson used to come to the executive council meeting in Ottawa, and when the question of Fish came up -- because these resolutions, in many instances are tabled to be dealt with the Executive Council -- and then they'd come and say, 'Listen, you don't want Fish in there.' Because they have that bloody structure which gives them a massive overrepresentation, and we were just made the laughingstock. So, that was one thing, and I think they were right on that. I mean, we had a situation when I ran the first time for Secretary-Treasurer where I had something like 60% of the membership of the Federation and I got 40% of the vote. I mean, it was so ridiculous that some local unions from Fish paid per capita on the basis of two members, and they got two delegates to the convention.

DY [01:19:03] Well, it's a range, isn't there? I mean, in some ways Steel has something of the same structure, doesn't it?

AK [01:19:10] No, not anymore.

DY [01:19:11] Small locals.

AK [01:19:12] Not anymore. No, right now Steel has two, three local unions in the whole of BC.

DY [01:19:23] But I mean, in the earlier days.

AK [01:19:25] In the earlier days, but the thing is that what they always did, though, they made sure that the locals were functioning. You know?

DY [01:19:34] Yeah.

AK [01:19:37] And in Fish, these two member locals were functioning too. I don't have to tell you who they were.

DY [01:19:43] Yeah, so what happened when you got out to B.C.?

AK [01:19:47] Well, I came out to B.C. and no question about it, there were -- my coming was quite the news thing because everybody knows I was really coming out here to really hammer the CP (Communist Party) and I know some of the CP-ers. I mean, I knew Harvey Murphy, but I also knew Dave Warland, and you know, I talked to people. I talked to people, and I was always very open and I said, 'Look, fellas, you don't have to be afraid that I'm going to red-bait you or anything else, but I'll tell you what I'm going to do. I'm going to outwork you.' and I say, 'You can't run your little labour education programme internally with --' what's his name, the labour historian.

DY [01:21:03] In B.C.?

AK [01:21:04] Pardon me?

DY [01:21:05] In B.C.?

AK [01:21:05] Yeah, the old CP-er. Came from Alberta here.

DY [01:21:10] Oh, Ben Swankey?

AK [01:21:12] Swankey, Ben Swankey. I'd say, 'But let me tell you, the CLC is going to have an education programme which will overshadow you.' And no question, within one year, I had the participation in weeklong schools, labour council schools and conferences. 5000 people, and the success, largely the success we had in '83 was because we were able to mobilize every bloody Labour Council. We had places like Kamloops, we had four, 5000 people at the demonstrations. So, it was in that particular area and, and also in regards to the Fish, because they would -- what they used against us, the Congress had a Congress chartered local in Prince Rupert, the co-op. Fisherman's Co-op. They were used. The Fishermen's Union always said they were scab herders, because when there was a fish strike, the co-op fishermen used to fish because they didn't negotiate the same way. So, I said, 'I'm going to get in there,' and the first thing I did is I wrote a constitution and the basic constitution said if there's a price strike in fish, any proceeds the co-op fishermen will accrue from it will be paid to the Fishermen's Union, and that was big money. 'You sure you'll get that?' Yeah, I did, and that stopped it now. You know, Nichol was more reasonable, well, more levelheaded than Homer, and they didn't have any problems since. So, again, I mean, Homer Stevens getting up at the Federation convention and praising the CLC. But then, at the end, I did all these things. Yeah, I am not taking credit about the Teachers coming into the Federation, but I do take credit that at least I talked to you people.

DY [01:24:17] What year was it that you came into BC, about 1975 or something like that?

AK [01:24:24] Yeah, I would have to look at that.

DY [01:24:28] Did the Harrison programme start under you?

AK [01:24:32] Yeah. Yes, it started under me. As a matter of fact, it was run in Parksville and the guy who ran it was -- came out of the IWA in Prince George and Bill King hired him to start the so-called Labour College by the provincial government, you remember that. My position was always that labour education has to be a living thing, and brick and mortar are not necessarily my cup of tea. I want money for programmes.

DY [01:25:29] Do you know why the labour college the Government was trying to sponsor, it never went anywhere, did it?

AK [01:25:33] Well, the thing is that the labour college, the way they were thinking of one, they wanted to have a physical facility, something like, you know, the labour history. I've been around and saw the whole labour movement in one city doing nothing else but fundraising. So, they're able to maintain their little palace, you know, and not have any money for anything else.

DY [01:26:09] Like Victoria?

AK [01:26:10] Pardon me? Yeah, Victoria is one classic example, but I know many others. I tell you, Lethbridge is a classic example. Lethbridge, would you believe it, ran women's mud wrestling, which was a big money-maker for the Lethbridge Labour Council.

DY [01:26:36] Anyway, so there was a bricks and mortar part to it. Was there a control part to it as well? About who would actually run it?

AK [01:26:46] Well, there was that, and my position always was that labour education is not some sort of academic enterprise. It's a tool for the objectives of the trade union movement, and it has to be done whenever possible in the confines of the community rather than the academic museums, which were never friendly to labour. In most instances, when we'd have a weekend school, our members couldn't find their way around. They said, for instance, that Cap (Capilano) College programme, they had some good people teaching, I'm not talking about -- (phone ringing)

DY [01:28:11] That's pretty exciting.

BG [01:28:14] Catches your attention.

AK [01:28:21] I'm just trying to -- I sort of got distracted a little bit.

DY [01:28:27] Yeah, yeah. No, we were off on the Labour College.

AK [01:28:31] Oh, yeah, the Labour College thing. Yeah, you know, even though they had some good instructors -- not saying -- it was a little bit of a tool of -- What's his name?

DY [01:28:50] I'll let you say it.

AK [01:28:50] You know.

DY [01:28:51] I'll let you say it.

AK [01:28:53] Well, I tell you, he sure changed colours because all at once, I see him, he's being the Provincial Secretary of the NDP.

DY [01:29:01] Okay, so you're talking about Ed Lavalle

AK [01:29:04] Ed Lavalle, but then just six months earlier, he was in struggle and felt that the first thing we should do is line up all members of the CLC Executive Council against the wall and shoot them.

BG [01:29:23] That was his statement?

AK [01:29:26] Pardon?

BG [01:29:26] Was that his statement?

AK [01:29:26] Yeah.

BG [01:29:27] Oh, wow.

DY [01:29:29] Well, I don't think he actually said that, but Art thinks that's what he thought.

AK [01:29:38] Actually, what did happen is that I sort of took my model very largely from the Swedes, their labour education. The Each one teach one proposition. Also from the other European countries, where the workers are not asked to work five days a week heavy labour and then spend two weekends in a weekend school, because the Swedes and the Austrians basically say, look, there's a family to be considered too. Well, I didn't go that far here because we didn't have the money, but I sort of said to the leadership of the local unions I said, 'Look, if you have some people in your local you want to bring along, send them to a couple of weekend schools. They'll give you sort of an evaluation, how are they doing and if -- because after all, a local union invests. A week in Harrison can be as much as $2,000. A week in lost wages and transportation at about $800 a week (unclear), but there's a payoff, a real payoff, because we do -- I haven't followed the programme that much -- but I know that we had it evaluated by UBC (The University of British Columbia) and they figured it's one of the best adult education programmes there is in the country.

DY [01:31:50] Well, the Harrison is quite an institution and it's still going strong.

AK [01:31:56] Yeah, but I was -- you know, when you do a lot of things you then sort of get bored.

DY [01:32:09] Mm hmm. Well, then exciting things happen. So, I was going to just lead in by asking you about one other personality in B.C. that I'd like to know more about, I guess. It's Jim Kinnaird. Did you have much to do with Jim?

AK [01:32:31] Sure.

DY [01:32:32] Okay well, tell me, tell us about Jim Kinnaird.

AK [01:32:34] Jim was the face of the labour movement, and I was the worker. The only thing is that sometimes Jim had a hard time catching up to me.

DY [01:32:46] Yeah.

AK [01:32:47] Jim. Look, Gentleman Jim.

DY [01:32:49] Yeah, go ahead.

AK [01:32:55] Was a good consensus person. He'd sort of sit you down, went around the table and everything else, and what came out was Jim's great idea, you know, after he reached a consensus. Jim sort of, to a great extent, he worked with the different groups, because 213 you had a strong historical communist faction in there. As a matter of fact, you had even -- the only local union in Canada I can think of where a Marxist-Leninist in struggle won an appeal at the international convention in regards to his reinstatement.

DY [01:33:56] Yeah, that's Terry Simpson. I don't think the affiliation is exactly right there, but anyways, yeah, no, it's --

AK [01:34:05] You mean Terry Simpson was not a Marxist-Leninist?

DY [01:34:09] No.

AK [01:34:10] What was he?

DY [01:34:11] No, he was kind of a left-wing kind of, orangutan kind of a guy. No, he didn't, he -- anyway, let's not get into that. What you're telling me is that the IBEW (international Brotherhood of Electrical Workers) Local 213 that Kinnaird comes from has a long history of --

AK [01:34:33] Jim got -- you know who elected Jim were the contractors. Yeah.

DY [01:34:42] Why do you say that?

AK [01:34:45] Well, Jim was a consensus builder. He was acting Deputy Minister when he got elected as President of the Fed, and so to me, the thing is that when you're in a labour movement and you get leadership, something has to result. There has to be a positive result on something. Jim was a nice guy. The only thing he used to say was, 'Art. Yes, yes. I'm supporting you, just take it easy. Take it easy.' I said, 'Yes, Jim, I will.'

DY [01:35:49] Well, because -- it actually turns out to be Jim Kinnaird dying in office that sets the stage for you becoming the President of the BC Fed.

AK [01:36:08] Well, history has been somewhat kind to me now. But, you know, I took an awful beating.

DY [01:36:14] Well, tell us. I haven't actually really heard how it is that, you know, of all of the personalities that were floating around the B.C. labour movement when Jim Kinnaird died suddenly, how it ends up being you as a staff person from the CLC who ends up taking the job. So I've never heard that story and it's probably an interesting one.

AK [01:36:42] Well, in the first place, I'm not the first one. There are many other directors, not many, but some other regional directors who played a strong political role and even held the Presidency of the Federation. The one you would most likely remember was the father of the Minister of the Environment in the Barrett government. Radford.

DY [01:37:13] Jack Radford.

AK [01:37:21] Jack Radford's father was a Regional Director of Education and was the same, the President and played the role. But again, then there was a little bit sort of a folk? (unclear) here too, he came out of the Mineworkers on Vancouver Island, played a very positive role there. As they say, I'm an oddball

DY [01:38:08] So, what were the dynamics that set in motion when Kinnaird dies all of a sudden?

AK [01:38:19] Well, I really looked around the table. Okay, and the guy who really wanted it was Stoney.

DY [01:38:33] From the IWA. Yeah. Jerry Stoney, yeah.

AK [01:38:36] Munro would love to get him out of the IWA, but Stoney did - (phone rings) - Stoney didn't have the support. He didn't have the support and I'm not so sure that I could really have worked with Stoney that well because he was -- when I asked people to do something, I ask them to do it for the labour movement, and that was my success. I never asked anyone to do things for me, because that in itself is a non-starter, and I think that Stoney was too much interested in Jerry Stoney. So, then the other one was the Meatcutter.

DY [01:39:49] George Johnson?

AK [01:39:50] No, no. Leif Hansen.

DY [01:39:53] Leif Hansen.

AK [01:39:53] Yeah, and Leif's commitment. Where I recognized Leif's downfall was when George Johnson retired. George Johnson did some things. You know, he was sometimes pretty crazy, but he at least established the extra day off. When we wanted to drastically remove or reduce the working hours, he was the only guy who actually did something about it. Had a long, bitter strike and won that strike and now we see it being given away. Leif Hansen. Look, where's Leif Hansen now? He took his early pension and he's commuting between England and Vancouver. I know everyone, that's the other thing. At the Winter School, I mean, a lot of people say, 'Wow, they were able to organize this.' I said, 'Look, everyone who ever attended the Winter School, I knew their name, their address, their telephone number, how to contact them at work, how to contact them at home, and what sort of level of commitment can we get from them. That was all in the CLC office. The guy who stopped allowing me to do that was John Fryer. Yeah, but it was there in the time when we really needed it, and that wasn't done previously. The other thing is, you know, if things fall into place, you don't want to -- It's one time of the year when I went a massive depression, and you know when it was? When the Winter School was over, because it put you on such a high, because you knew that things were happening.