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Indo-Canadian Interview 29
Description
Il est arrivé au Canada à l’âge de 18 ans. Son épouse est demeurée en Inde parce qu’elle était malade ; elle est décédée peu après son départ. Il est venu pour gagner de l’argent et améliorer son niveau de vie. En Inde, les fermiers avaient de la difficulté à joindre les deux bouts et la plupart ne possédaient que cinq acres. Il a voyagé en bateau de Calcutta à Vancouver, via Hong Kong. Sur le navire, les voyageurs indiens devaient demeurer sous une tente, sur le pont, alors que les Blancs voyageaient en première classe. A son arrivée, il a travaillé à la scierie Fraser, où travaillaient environ 500 Indiens. Ces derniers gagnaient 0,05$ l’heure de moins que les travailleurs caucasiens, même s’ils travaillaient beaucoup plus fort. Les travailleurs vivaient dans un logement communautaire fourni par la scierie et ils employaient un cuisinier.
Il raconte que certaines brasseries refusaient de servir les Indiens. Il partage son opinion sur l’agitation des Sikhs en Inde et sur l’assassinat d’Indira Gandhi. Son père est venu au Canada en 1907, avec plusieurs autres habitants de son village, mais il est retourné vivre en Inde en 1938. Son père a d’abord travaillé sur une ferme, puis dans une scierie. À cette époque, les Indiens aidaient leurs compatriotes à trouver des emplois dans les scieries. Ceux qui travaillaient sur les fermes habitaient dans l’étable, avec les animaux, et les fermes appartenaient à des Blancs. Pendant la guerre [première guerre mondiale], plusieurs Indo-canadiens ont pu acheter des terres parce que certains propriétaires n’arrivaient plus à payer leurs taxes. Il raconte qu’il était impossible pour les Indiens instruits d’obtenir un emploi dans leur domaine au Canada ; plusieurs devaient accepter des métiers inférieurs dans les scieries, même s’ils avaient étudié au Canada. Il croit qu’il est préférable de vivre au Canada parce qu’en Inde, une personne doit payer des pots-de-vin pour démarrer une entreprise ou obtenir un emploi désirable. Il décrit un conflit qui a occasionné une division des Gurdwaras. Il parle également des événements de 1952, lorsque certains ont commencé à fréquenter les Gurdwaras sans se couvrir la tête., [This transcript was created by optical character recognition (OCR) software and the accuracy depends on the quality of scanned images and complexity of original text.]
SIKHS IN CANADA
Interviewers Professor G. S. Basran Department of Sociology
SIKHS IN CANADA
Interviewer* Professor, Gurcharan Singh Basran
Date of the Interviews july 9th
Time Begin: 1:30
Language t Will be conducted in Punjabi.
G. B.: How old are you now:
Informant: 79
G. B.: How many children do you have?
Informant: I have one daughter from my first wife, and she is in America, and from the second wife, two sons and two daughters. My first wife died and I got married second time.
G. B.: You are from Punjab, village Churahchak, Ferojefikes?
Informant: Yes, I am.
G. B.: When you came here, how old were you at that time?
Informant: I was 18 years old.
G. B.: You were married?
Informant: Yes, two months before I came here, I got married.
G. B.: Your wife did not come with you?
Informant: No, she could not come , later on she got sick when I came here. So, I went back to India, but there was no way to bring her here at that time. Moreover, she said, that country is very cold, leave me here and you go and spend few more years, then come. Then I came here, but she died later on when I was here. So, I got married again in 1939*
G. B.: So, You went back?
Informant: Yes, I went back then.
G. B.: Wo, when you got married in 1939 second time then your wife came with you?
Informant: No, she did not, because we could tell from the circumstances, that the war would start soon. So, I came at the same time in a rush. I thought if the war would not start then I could call her, but the war started in 19*41,
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We stayed in Hong Cong for two months, from there just one plane was coming, which we could get from Manila, so we got the plane and reached Manila. We had to stay for two months because the American govt. was not allowing us. So, we had to keep our hair, we could not come to Canada straight, the plane was President Puller, so I came through America. There was no way to reach here, because we are still on the way when the bombardment started at the Pear'Harbor. Then from there, they said you had to get off here and cannot go, because they said, we ha& to carry the wounded. But, then, I do not know, they changed their mind or something but they brought us too.
G. B.: How old were you when you reached here?
Informant: 18 years.
G. B.: It means, before that you used to work at home back in India?
Informant: No, I was not working. I was in grade 8 at that time I made up my mind to come here.
G. B.: You were in grade 8 at that time?
Informant: Yes, I was.
G. B.: What were the main reason to come here, because your father was already here?
Informant: Because of that, and moreover with grade 8 you could not get any* kind of job at that time, even the engineers at that time were working with us in the Mills.
G. B.: Is that right, at that time too?
Informant: Oh, yes.
G. B.: Oh, I see, it means, the conditions back in India must be worse than in here?
Informant: Oh, yes, that is right, Military people were little bit better off, young people who were in the military at that time few of them got ranked, because of their sacrifices, they fought in the wars. The military jobs were good at that time in India. The cleric]^ jobs came afterwards, may be in 1930. So, with this thought I came here, that I would make money there, and good living.
G. B.: The ingormation about Canada, you got from your father?
Informant: Yes, from my father.
G. B.: When you left India, what was the condition of our villages? How was the condition of the people, like living, eating, houses, farming etc. I mean general condition of the people?
Informant: Not very good, the people who were doing jobs in the Array, they were little better off, others like the condition of the farmer was
not good.
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G. B.: People had less money and life was very very simple?
Informant: Yes, they had hardly any money, and life was very simple.
G. B.: How about the land?
Informant: There was not much land, generally people had five acres of land, or perhaps less than that.
G. B.: When you left from there, you reached Calcutta first, then after that Hong Cong?
Informant: Yes, we went to Calcutta first, then got the ship from there to Hong Cong.
G. B.: What was the living and eating condition on the ship?
Informant: We could not get the first class, if we did then, we could not afford it. The white people had the first class reserved for them, they used to come in the first class, and our people used to stay in the deck and sleep there, people used to spread some sort of cloth on the floor and sleep together. They even did not have the roofs on the deck there was some sort of cloth looked like a tent, they put that on the deck to prevent the rain water from the top. So our people used t© sleep on the deck like that. When the ship had to stop some place then they used to open that tent and then the people could walk around or go to town. Then they used to take the load through that passage where people used to sleep.
G. B.: So, they used to sleep on that path or the passage where you waii round and the ship people used to take the load or luggage down or bring it up through that passage?
Informant: Yes, that is right, but some used to sleep there, and some on the deck. Some people used to put their cots on the deck.
G. B.: They used to get those cots in the ship?
Informant: No, they used to buy from Calcutta, people had tough time, then you see, where they burn the coal in the broiler, we used to cook our meal chapaties and lentis and vegetable etc., Chinese used to be there too, so, we used to cook by turns.
G. B.: How about the Whites?
Informant: They had everything in the first class. We did not have anything to do with them or was not anything common with them.
G. B.: They were separate from you and so were you from them?
Informant: Yes, it was like that from the very beginning.
G. B.: Suppose, if they happened to meet you in the ship, were they used to say something?
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Informant: Yes, doctors, the officers of the ship or others used to take round sometimes in the ship. But, they never said anything because they knew already how was the living in Punjab, how people are living over there.
G. B.: When you reached here, your father came to receive you?
Informant: My father three four times, after every two weeks the ship used to take off from HongdCong and reaches here in 18 days. He used to go 'to receive me, but I got very sick in India just at the same time, I was to be here, I could not inform him the right time of my arrival. There were some people from the neighbouring village they said, that they will take care of me and I will be better or alright on the way. So, we had to stay 11 days in Calcutta. So, during this time I got better.
G. B.: Which place did you reach here then?
Informant: I reached, Frazer Mill, which was the biggest Mill here at that time. And, approximately, 500 our countrymen were working in that Mill in those days.
G. B.: Did you come to Victoria or Vancouver first?
Informant: No, I came to Vancouver first.
G. B.: So, when you came, then the immigration people did not give any problem?
Informant: Yes, they held me back there, and told that you are one year over So, you can not get off.
G. B.: It was 18 years at that time?
Informant: Yes, that was the law, but I was less than 18 years. But they calculated my age wrong. They took me in the office and was told that you cannot stay here. My father could not come to receive me, but he sent one of his friends to receive me, so he was with me in the office. I told them that I am not exactly 18 years of age. I insisted and calculated the years with my fingers, then they admitted, that I was not 18 at that time. They got mixed up with the calculation. I told them, I was born in 1907 and be 18 in the month of August, that was the month of May when I reached here. So, they understood then. They asked, which grade you were in . I told I was in grade 8, and they start English in grade 5«
G. B.: When you came what kind of work you did?
Informant: I worked in the Frazer Mill. Lots of our countrymen were working there. Almost 500 people were in that Mill, who were East Indian.
G. B.: Where is that Frazer Mill?
Informant: This Mill is close to Mission, you see the bridge there, when you to Haney, it is on the right side when you go from here to that place.
G. B.: Is it not that place, where Mewa Singh was cremated, because I read it somewhere?
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Informant: Yes, that is right, he was cremated there. They used to tell, I after that. It was raining quite bit on that day, people had the pictures of that time too, but I do not know, if they have them now or not. People had the unbrellas due to heavy rain and some were walking along just like that. He was hanged in New West Mi*si&n. Prazer Mill is five miles away where he was cremated. /n-»;
G. B.: When you were working in the lumber Mill, what was the working condition, and the wages etc.?
Informant: Two dollars a day, in those days. That is twenty cents an hour, but for the Whites, it was 30 cents an hour. Because they use to keep us differently, Chinese, Japnese and East Indians, they use to pay us all 5 cents less than the Whites.
G. B.: So, your wage was 25 cets an hour, and theirs (Whites) 30 cents an hour, and you were doing the same kind of work?
Informant: Yes, that was the case, the work was same, but the wage was different. But our people were hard worker compare to the white people, and used to work even more than they were expected. Even Chinese and the Japnese could not do hard work as ours.
G. B.: When you used to work, there were white people too, who used to work with you at the same place, or they were separate, and you were separate?
Informant: No, they were with us, we used to work together. I was on ree-saw first, it is a circle saw. They call it ree-saw. They take the fat part from inside then on ree-saw 2by b. The big number comes from inside then it goes through the ree-saw, so, we were two one used to feed in the front and on the other end (at the back) other person used to keep the long and heavy wood (planks) straight, and the third one was Sohia with us. So, / I did this kind of work first.
G. B.: Your father was working at the same place too? Informant: No, he was working somewhere out. G. B.: Where you used to live there?
Informant: We used to live in the camps there, these camps were belonged to the Company. Thirty or forty people used to live together in one camp. And there was one room for each, the washrooms used to be outside, that Mill was at the bank of a river, there they had the toilets made of wood or things like that. It was not like it is now. Like farmer people sometimes make out house toilet. And there was good arrangement to take bath, there was more than enough wood at that time, which they use to make papers now. So, Company people used to bring lots of woed there, and they used to put a big tub which was enough for thirty or forty people, and we used to fill it with water and at noon time we used to put the fire with the wood and the and the water used to get hot in that tub and remained hot, when we used to come back at five in the evening, then the people used to take bath by the turns.
G. B.: How about the meal?
Informant: They used to keep the cook, everybody did that, then they (our people)
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used to pay him, whatever the wage was at that time.
G. B.: When you used to live first, did you have any experience with the Whites that they used to make you feel small or put the feelings that you are not as good as we are? When you used to work or anything like til that, did you have any problem?
Informant: Nothing happened like that really to us. But usually when people used to go sometimes to town, they did not let them go in some places.
G. B.: Oh, they did not allow you go there?
Informant: No, they did not let our people go at some places.
G. B.: They had written, Whites only?
Informant: No, it was not written, but at some places it was written like in the hotels, No allowed. Sometimes, they used to say you cannot come.
G. B.: You said, they had written , No allowed, like Indians?
Informant: Yes, Indian, No allowed. Like this, they did not let our people go inside the beer pubs, it was not written, but they used to prevent our people to go inside that place. Sometimes, our people used to pick up just a little argument or some sort of fight you can say, that why you don't let us go in, they used to say because you are Hindu,. At that time they did not have any idea who is Sikh or Hindu, so they used to call everybody Hindu, because they came from Hindustan.
G. B.: I heard from somewhere, that they first did not let us build the Gurdawaras?
Informant: There was not any obstacle I believed , at that time, as much as I have heard, but they first got the place on rent on Main Street. Then Singhs thought that place is small, so they built the Gurdawara on the Second Avenue.
G. B.: Most people were singles, I mean living without the families?
Informant: Yes, I think, there must be only seven or eight families were here.
G. B.: In Vancouver?
Informant: Yes, in here.
G. B.: When we corae to other countries, everybody has the dreams, and used to think that we will do this and do that, you think whatever you had on your mind, you accomplished it and are happy?
Informant: Yes, I am happy, my general life is happy.
G. B.: Now, I am going to ask few questions about India, when did you go back last time?
Informant: I went in 1961» stayed there almost six months.
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G. B.: When you went to India in 1961, and then left that country, what do you think the conditions of that time, did the country improve or went down, how were the things over there?
Informant: In reality, the condition in the village, I cannot say anything about it, you know more than I do. But the condition was better compare to that time, I came.
G. B.: Whatever is happening about the Sikhs agitation, you know this all, attacking on The Gurdawara.role of Bhinderanwala, assassination of Mrs. Gandhi and what happened after that incident in Delhi and so on?
Informant: As far as I can understand, it is govt.'s fault and the trick. She is involved in all these things, it is totally wrong from her part. In reality, govt. wants to finish the sikh nation. Because when we do not read our own Guru Granth Sahib and do not act upon accordingly, it is our fault. This Guru Granth Sahib is for everybody, no matter, if you are Hindu, Muslim or Sikh it is for all. But we people think that we are the owner of it. They did not study because it was not theirs, ^ but why we did not study if Guru Granth Sahib was ours. We came to know just few years ago that everything is in it. Whatever the sikh history is containing, you cannot find it anywhere else, whatever science is explaining us now, our Gurus told these things long time ago. But, we have forgotten our God.
G. B.: Ok, If I would ask some questions about your father, when did he die?
Informant: I believed he died In 1956, and went back to India in 1938.
G. B.: So, then he stayed in India after that?
Informant: Yes, he did.
G. B.Which year he came here?
Informant: He came in 190?, I was two months old at that time.
G. B.: He came straight from India?
Informant: Yes, he did.
G. B.: Vancouver?
Informant: Yes, in Vancouver.
G. B.: How did he come to know about Canada, the information about this country, that he should come here?
Informant: He heard from the people of our village, some of them were here. Then my father along with other people from the neighbouring villages came together in a group.
G. B.: So, how he used to tell the condition, when he came here, do you remember anything about that time?
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Informant: Yes, he used to tell, that they were working on the farms at that time. After that, they started working in the Mills. They started settling down in the Mills and used to get work for their friends or relatives. I mean they used to help our countrymen to get work. Doabba people were mostly on the farms and in the CPR.
G. B.: When they used to work on the farms, how much money they used to get, and where they used to live?
Informant: They were not given the place to live right in the houses, the farmer had the barns where they to keep their livestock cattle etc. j or anything like that, sothey used to give them the_place_in those barns. I have not seen thyose things, but my father used to tell me about all these things.
G. B.: How about money, or wages?
Informant: Just the same, sometimes less too.
G. B.: All these farms belonged to the Whites?
Informant: Yes, they were in those days. Afterwards, our people started buying the farms too. Then, during the war the time was very bad, people lost their lands because they could not pay the taxes. My father also bought some land in those days. Almost every countryman bought the land in those days, because whatever they used to save then they used to say let us buy the land. So, they did, it was because we people came from y Punjab and did the farming over there.
G. B.: Did they buy the land just in this area?
Informant: No, all over, like Abbosford, Kamloops, our people went all over. Some went to Calgary too.
G. B.: Yes, in Calgary, there were two families. It means our first people started working on the farms first, then in CPR, Rail Road, then in the Mills later on.
Informant: Yes, that is how they did.
G. B.: You are saying they could not pay the tax, it is the matter of 191**-, when the govt. took their land?
Informant: No, they did not tfljuksthe land, but you see if you could not pay the tax for two years, then even third year you could not pay either, then automatically it becomes the property of the govt.
G. B.: When did it happen though?
Informant: I believed before 1918.
G. B.: It means then people went to do other jobs?
Informant: Yes, that is right.
G. B.: I see, this very interesting, because I did not know about it.
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Informant: But still there were few who were working in the Mills in those days, because not all of them bought the farms.
G. B.: Anything else about the old time you want to tell or which is important you can tell. I asked whatever I wanted to ask, now it is up to you if you want to add anything else.
Informant: Well, just this thing that it was even hard for the educated people to get job. Some educated people were working with us in the Mills. There was one man named Iqbal Singh, he was engineer, he was pilot too, he could not get the job, went back to India. There he got involved in communist party, he was Kairons person, so he wanted him to get out of India, so he helped him and he came to England, from there then he came here. But he died three four years afterwards, because he was pushed , I am sure by the white man, when he was going to take someone to the University, that white man pushed him and his head bumped into the side path and he died there..
G. B.: So, it means even educated people could not get the jobs., in those days?
Informant: Absolutely true, educated people were working with us in the Mills. They were educated, but we people learned grading work , wood work or any other labouring skill we learned, but these people did not know how to work, then gradually they succeeded but they lived like that way, it was hard. After 19^7» then they could find some work according to their education.
G. B.: This happend to the people, who educated or got their education from here or with those people who got their education from somewher else? And people who were educated in India, what about them?
Informant: No, people who got their education from here, it happened to them, but people who were educated in India they even did not care for them who were they. Moreover they did not know that much English either, although they were educated. Suppose, if you were teacher you could not teach here unless you would get the degree from here, so this is the case.
G. B.: So, it seems to you that the conditions have been improved now?
Informant: Yes, that is true, they are improved. There is a big difference. If our older people would not had stayed here, then you people could not had the chance to come to Canada or America. Usually, people came when they saw the living standard or heard about the people who were living here before, some people who came in 1970 as visitors they paid $35000 to the travelling agents or the persons like that. So, here anybody could run a business or do anything else, but in our India there are hundreds of obstacles to start anything. You know that, there people have to give the bribe to get their work done, so much corruption there. If somebody get higher education still he needed money to get into that job or profession to be selected. I mean here are so many facilities compare to that country.
Our first people did very hard work here and so they succeeded with their hardships. Actually, they were used to do hard work back in India, as we all know the farming was very difficult in the old time.
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The Whites tried their best to kick our first people from here. I forgot the name of the country.
G. B.: Oh, I see, that was IT^uram < .
Informant: Yes, yes, then there our two peraana men went, one was from Jagroan and the other was § do not remember. The one who was Jagroan he was called Shamu.
G. B.: The other one was may be Mitt Singh Pandori?
Informant: No, no, according to us he is just like Tauhra now a days, he came out among the appoligizers, he went from here with Jatha, there when Majathias came out then he came out of those appologizers. But his name is quite famous here, because people from his area told that he did very good work did this and that, so he came from that party. It was the matter of when that Akali movement was going on.
G. B.: Here that incident of Kama Ghatta Maru has happened before you came here? And the fights in the Gurdawaras too?
Informant: Yes, that fight about Kama Ghatta Maru took place before I came here. The Gurdawara fights, one side was Sarain Singh's party and they wanted to keep the Gurdawara, the others were in Bela Singh* s party and they were saying that they would demolish the Gurdawara. Like now, the Sikhs are doing, more than half these Sikhs are in favor of Congress party or they are in it. These three or four Gurdawaras, they are keeping their connection with the congress.
G. B.: Oh, I see, in Vancouver?
Informant: Oh, yes. Here is one Gurdawara and the Abbosford one, these two are not involved. But in rest of them there are the congress people who run it and all in all there. So, that man Surain Singh devoted his whole life for the sake of our nation and he never went back to India since he came here. He was from Doabba side.
G. B.: Anything else you want to tell about the old time or different to that?
Informant: Our people never depended upon anybody, they worked very hard in that tough time, they bought the Mills, farms, worked in the Rail Road etc. Like these people did not give work to our educated people A or used to give us heavy work and so on, they were thinking that you \are slave and came from the slave country. But our people showed them the hard work never depended upon them for anything, they never sat without work. When we had to fight for the rights or anything like that we fought too, Bela Singh was bought by the White Govt. he was not in favor of the Gurdawara. We succeeded and improved that much because of the Gurdawaras. They used to get together in the Gurdawara and fought for the Kama Ghatta Maru incident. The collected the money fought for the case it was due to the Gurdawara. There was no other way out if there was no Gurdawara. Khals«Diwan was the first body and the rest were the branches, as these young people came they got clean shaved . First the committees had the Singh who is
baptized otherwise nobody could get into those committees.
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G. B.: When this was started?
Informant: It was that way from the very beginning. Nobody was clean shaved, just two or four hardly.
G. B.: People who came first, they had the hair beard and turbans etc.?
Informant: Yes, quite right, all of them had the hair and beard, they were complete Singhs.
G. B.: It was at the time of your father?
Informant: Yes, at that time, they were keeping their turbans and so on. I did not get my hair cut up til now, same way our older people were keeping them.
G. B.: Ok, just tell me one thing, people say that they used to go to the Gurdawara without their head covered, and when did it start?
Informant: I believed it started in 1952, because we were eight or nine men who came out of that Gurdawara in this Akali Gurdawara.
G. B.: Yes, I saw it, the old Gurdawara?
Informant: No, the old one was on the Second Avenue, they built it now near the free way which used to be on the llth Ave. It has the same name Akali Sikh Temple. In 1952 we came out of that Gurdawara, when the clean shaven said, that we could be the president, secretary or this and that, we do not want these people on the committee. So, when this happened then we said, you cannot do that, but they were in the majority, so they told that they aould elect the committee, we said, we will be there, if you would not keep the Ifcw first law and elect the committee according to your new law, then we will do the prayer and come back what we could donow. When we went, we were nine out of them I was young and the rest were elderly people. When we reached there, police was already there, they have locked the Gurdawara,and were standing on the side walk, they were 60 or 70 people in numbers. They prevented us going inside the Gurdawara and said, you cannot go inside it, we said, nobody can prevent us going inside the Gurdawara.
There were two brothers among us, they were very strong and they went up stairs forcingly, they were making noise and were coming down, saying they locked it what we should do. Then the police said, you cannot go inside it, we asked, your Churches are closed on Sundays too? Couldn't we go to our Church on Sundays? The police told, that they have the control over the Gurdawara, so you cannot go in. We asked why we cannot go? The police said, that they came to pick up fight. I daid, these elderly people who walk with the support of the stick, they came to fight? But, ont the other hand these young men are standing here to beat them up. So, these are the matters, then we came back, later on we bought the place for Gurdawara for $14000. That was the old Church on llth Avenue.
G. B.: It means that trend started in 1952-53. that you can go without your head covered?
Informant: Yes, that is right.
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G. B.: How long it kept on going? And it was in all the Gurdawaras?
Informant: Yes, it was in every Gurdawara, because these clean shaved were in great majority. They used to tell the people who used to come from India, that you should get clean shaved otherwise you would not get any work. So, in this way they influenced the people who were coming from India, our boys whom we called here, they got their hair cut too, what we could do.